Ammunition discrepancies

[Kiwikkiwik]

Hello I picked up some discrepancies in ammunition loadouts

UK
Fletcher's book British battle tanks gives ammunition for the Valentines that differ from what the game has.
Unit 030 Valentine III.....game 79 book 62
Unit 032 Valentine XI.....game 60 book 46
Unit 365 Valentine III.....game 79 book 62
Unit 368 Valentine XI.....game 60 book 46
Unit 369 Valentine V......game 79 book 62
Unit 373 Valentine V......game 79 book 62
The other Valentines are correct.
Units 30, 369 and 373, though armed with 2 pdrs have HE ammunition allocated?

In game Lee has 50 75mm rounds and Grant has 65. Most references will give lee 46 and grant 80. see 24:30 in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu8NwLls7PY
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_Lee

Chamberlains "British and American tanks of WW2" and Wiki give UK unit 43, 'archer' 39 shells, game has 52
Same reference gives UK unit 47, 'Sexton' a regulation standard ammunition loadout of 87 HE or Smoke and 18 AP, so 105. Game has just 98 HE. In game Canadian sexton gets 105 HE, 7 sabot, No AP.

The book "A15 Cruiser Mk.VI Crusader Tank A Technical History" by Knight and Fletchers "British Battle Tanks: British-made tanks of World War II" gives 6 pdr crusader A15 73 or 76 shells and 2 pdr 107 shells. Game has 55/65 and 110.
This site
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.p...anks&Itemid=56
However gives units 010/008, 2 pdr gun version 130 shells and units 011/012/142/197/600, 6 prd version, 73 shells.
So not sure if 2 pdr crusader loadout is actually 107 or 130, differences may reflect different versions.
The same site gives unit 009, 'Crusader I-CS' 63 shells, Knight and Fletcher give 65, game has 45. Also 13 of the 15 tanks that carry wpn 35, '3in CSH' have been mistakenly given AP rounds, 3" Howitzer does not have an AP round only smoke and HE.

The Tank data appendices in Jentzs book "Tank combat in North Africa" gives the UK unit 298/596, 'Mk VIb' 200 rounds of .5 ammunition. Game gives it 120 bursts. So burst rate is 1.6 bullets per burst. German 20mm 222 gets 5 bullets per burst, surely 12.7mm vickers MG should fire more bullets per burst than 20mm gun? 5 bullets per burst gives vickers .5 24 bursts instead of 120.

Germany

Unit 979, 'sIG 33 Pz II' has 30 shells Spielberger in his book sturmgeshultz gives it 10. see also
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/n...pfwagen-ii-sf/

Unit 157, 'Panzerwerfer 42' game has 10 rockets, actually has 30, carries 2X10 reloads. see
https://weaponsystems.net/system/324-Panzerwerfer+42

Units 047/385/965 Marder III M in game has 27 shells. Jentzs Panzer Tracts No. 7-2 gives 38 shells, reference includes storage Diagram.

Units 956/957 RSO/PaK 40 in game has 25/28 shells. Jentzs Panzer Tracts No. 7-3 gives 42 shells. Gun tray has 7 below floor compartments each must hold 6 shells.

Units 159 and 862 SdKfz 250/7 GrW in game has 42 bombs Jentz in Panzer tracts 15-1 (250) gives it 66, with storage arrangement photos.
Units 163 and 575 SdKfz 251/2 GrW in game has 90 bombs Ludeke gives it 66. Jentzs Panzer Tracts No. 15-2 (251) agrees with 66 and gives it a crew of 8, game has crew of 4

Unit 510, 'JPz IV/70A' in game has 55 shells. Jentzs "Panzer Tracts No. 9-2" (JPz IV) gives 90 shells.
ETO Ordinance Technical Intelligence Bulletin No. 27 from Oct 44 mentions a captured German unit 004 "PzKw II Luchs" contained two clips (Magazines?) of Tungsten cored ammunition, game allocates no sabot to this vehicle.
Same reference gives German unit 507 "JPz IV/70V" 57 75mm shells, game has 55. Reference details storage provisions for the 57 rounds. Jentz gives 55 rounds storage but adds a ? to this number.

Jentz 1978 "Encyclopedia of German Tanks or World War Two" gives German units 969, 280, 19 and 18 PzKw 38 (t) 42 or 72 shells However in his later work of 2007 "Panzertracts No. 18 38t" he gives all models of 38t 90 shells. The later publication date and the fact that the panzertracts book is specifically about the 38t makes me think that 90 is the correct loadout, especially as 37mm ammunition is quite small.

Jentzs," Panzer tracts 13-1" 222
says 2cm tungsten core ammunition, (sabot) for the 222 was first issued in 11/40 game has 2/41. Jentz says game date is the date AHM clarified the "initial ammunition allotment" but goes on to say, "The 2cm Pzgr. Patr.40 had already been accepted into service in the Heer on 5 November 1940. This new order merely clarified distribution." the text also details the initial allocation which was for 222 900 rounds in total, 350 AP, 100 HE and 450 sabot AP40, 180 of these are carried on the vehicle. game has 18 HE, 9AP, 9 Sabot. Jentz's loadout translated into game terms would be 4 HE, 14 AP, 18 Sabot.

Units that could have 2cm sabot added are; 72 SdKfz 234/1, 383 SdKfz 250/9, 384 SdKfz 231 (8), 391 SdKfz 222, 832 SdKfz 251/17, 833 SdKfz 231 (6), 836 PzKw II F, 950 Aufklarer 38t and 951 Aufklarer 38t

Unit 832 SdKfz 251/17 in game has 70 bursts. Jentzs Panzer Tracts No. 15-3 (251) gives 600 shells, so bursts are 8.5 shells each, at 5 shells/burst like 222 should be 120 bursts.
Units 162/825 SdKfz 250/9 in game has 20 bursts. Jentzs Panzer Tracts No. 15-1 (250) gives 230 shells, so should be 23 bursts if firing at the same rate as 222.

Unit 141, 'Pillbox' receives 3.7cm sabot a little early in 1930.

10.5 lFh 18 had HEAT, units 721 and 870 could have HEAT added, same as Wespe already has.

Unit 315, 'Coastal Fort' has gun SK L/40 not 17cm K 18 as in game. SK L/40 has an AP shell. see
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_675-40_skc04.php
Site also has a chart for AP penetrations (from chart min penetration would be substantially better than 20) and gives loadout for weapon as 130, game has 100.

Unit 218, 'SdKfz 251 m PzB has 120 shells Ludkes German halftracks and Wheeled vehicles says 40 rounds were carried. Ludeke also says the Pzb was carried 'loose' as standard equipment in the 251/10, 251/5 and 251/7. confirmed by Jentz in Panzer tracts No. 15-2 (251).

Unit 426 SdKfz 221 sPzB in game has 90 shells. Jentzs Panzer Tracts No. 13-1 (221) gives 96 shells.

Japan
Courtesy of
Handbook of Japanese military forces 1944.
Wpn 219 70mm Type 92 FH has its AP ammunition correctly allocated when in a bunker but none of the other 5 units that have the weapon have any AP ammunition allocated.
Wpn 37 75mm Type 41 FH has a dedicated AP round. Only one of the three units (156/184/690) with this weapon receives 5 Sabot. None of the 3 units with this weapon receive any of this weapons HEAT rounds. see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_4...m_mountain_gun
Wpn 75mm Type 94 FH has a game AP round, but none is allocated to the two units that have the weapon.
Unit 054 10cm Type 91 FH has an AP shell, game gives 3 Sabot no AP.
Wpn 072 105mm Type92 FG has an AP shell but unit is off-board.
Wpns 79/80/81/104 150mm Guns all fire an AP Shell
see
http://ww2data.blogspot.com/2015/07/...tion-15cm.html
Wpn 79 is off-board, Wpn 80/81/104 have no AP not allocated,
As a guide to all the 150mm guns Wpn 79 150mm Type 96 Howitzer AP-HE penetrations, according to Military intelligence Divisions publication "Japanese tank and antitank warfare are";
250 yds 124mm
500 yds 119mm
750 yds 112mm
1000 yds 102mm

Unit 102 Type 4 Ho-Ro has wpn 080 not wpn 081.

I imagine that there was no shortage of Japanese AP and HEAT ammunition. I would suggest that it would be interesting to create formations using these guns but give them bigger allocations of AP and HEAT shells. Similar to what has been done for the Italians with "Improvisato CC" This makes sense as they had the same problem as the Italians, facing lots of Shermans with minimal AT resources.

The 37mm Ho-203 cannon as mounted in unit 76 and 287 has 15 shells not 10 as in the game. see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho-203_cannon

Italy
Handbook of enemy ammunition pamphlet 8 gives the wpn 35 100L17 Mod16/35 a HEAT munition. Wpn has HEAT pen value in game but no HEAT is allocated to the units (031/537) that have this weapon.

France
Unit 177 FCM Char 2C in game has 50 shells wiki gives it 124, as does tank encyclopedia
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/france/fcm-2c.php
other sources say 150 not unlikely in a tank of this size.

75mm gun on char B1 (unit 008) and Char B1 Bis(unit 012) had 80 and 74 shells respectively, game gives B1 only 74. Wiki also says only 7 of these shells were AP, game has 14.
For these two tanks game gives 47mm gun 40 AP, 10 HE reference gives 30 AP 20 HE.
see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_B1

Unit 435 Char B1 ter never saw service prototypes not completed before fall of france.

[DRG]

Unit 157, 'Panzerwerfer 42' game has 10 rockets, actually has 30, carries 2X10 reloads.

This is precisely why everything you write is suspect.

Can you not add 10+10 ?
Do you not know how the game uses rockets?




it carries 20 rockets. You claim it has 10. 10 is incorrect. The ROF is set to 5 so it uses 5 from each weapon line giving it a ten shot launch and it can be used that way twice OR a player, if he so desires, can shut down one weapon line and only fire five at a time which is why it was set up with two weapon lines and a 5 ROF instead of 1 weapon line with 20 rockets and 10 ROF.

Had you said the vehicle currently carries 20 but you have a source that claims it could carry 30 total with 20 additional rounds as reloads then we would have been a place to start. Saying "game has 10 rockets" does not generate the belief in us that what you say can be believed 100% which means everything has to be double-checked and quite frankly the 2 people who are expected to do all the work ( one actually and that is me ) are rapidly losing interest in double-checking endless lists of real or imagined "errors" like this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerwerfer

The system contained 10 missile tubes, and generally carried 20 projectiles, enough for the vehicle to fire two full salvos

https://weaponsystems.net/system/324-Panzerwerfer+42

Mount
10 round launcher on turntable
Ammunition
20 rockets, 10 ready to fire

AND THAT IS THE SOURCE YOU USED TO JUSTIFY IT CARRIED 30 but it clearly states it had 20 rockets with 10 being ready to fire. It does not say it carries 20 reloads plus 10 ready to fire it says 20 rockets, 10 ready to fire and every other source claims 20 total rounds

https://weaponsystems.net/system/324-Panzerwerfer+42



https://books.google.ca/books?id=NU3...%20war&f=false


and that is why it carries 20 total rounds in the game

[Kiwikkiwik]

Actually it looks as though we are both wrong.
https://www.deviantart.com/baryonyx6...ails-423547633
looks as though 12 reloads are carried.

Considering the hundreds of valid errors I've Identified in your game I wouldn't be surprised if I made the occasional mistake maybe one in a hundred perhaps.

Anybody who reads my posts can see they are well researched, well presented and largely correct.

Of course I am happy to clarify or further research any information you think might be wrong, you need only ask.

[DRG]

If you take a crappy little model shown on Deviant art as "proof" that "we are both wrong."..... well it says much

It may be more correct but the info we have used from a number of sources indicates 20 rounds total were carried but as Andy pointed out in another thread smoke is handed out randomly and if indeed there were 4 racks of 3 reloads for this then there may have been some smoke carried as well but all sources found indicate it carried 20HE rounds total.

What I do know is the count is going to stay 20 total HE rounds and there will be random smoke rounds applied by the game code just as it always has and is not going to change.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik

Same reference gives UK unit 47, 'Sexton' a regulation standard ammunition loadout of 87 HE or Smoke and 18 AP, so 105. Game has just 98 HE. In game Canadian sexton gets 105 HE, 7 sabot, No AP.

Another lovely mix of correct and incorrect info and misunderstanding the way the game works.

We CAN agree that the overall ammo loadout for the Sexton should be 105 rounds and that means the Canadian version with 105 HE and 7 sabot is a bit too high and has now been changed

The British Sexton OTOH does NOT have "just 98 HE" it has the loadout the Canadian version should have 98 HE and 7 sabot = 105 rounds.

That your source says the "a regulation standard ammunition loadout of 87 HE or Smoke and 18 AP" is fine but we gave them fewer "AP" rounds because in the game they are used for indirect fire and 7 AP rounds were deemed " good enough" as 98 divided by 7 ROF gives the unit 14 salvos whereas 87 would give it an odd number of salvos so in this case, it was given a bit more HE than was maybe a "a regulation standard ammunition loadout" but that was a gameplay decision. We could have given it 91 to make 13 salvos leaving 14 for "AP" but we didn't because Sextons are not used for AT work and 7 "AP" for self-defence was thought suitable.

Now we get to that misconception of game mechanics

"Canadian sexton gets 105 HE, 7 sabot, No AP"

The Canadian sexton does indeed have more rounds than it should and not have the same as the Brit and Australian Sexton.....98 HE, 7 sabot

It does not carry "AP" because for indirect fire units "AP" is used for cluster munitions and that is why all indirect capable arty units that also had "AP" rounds have SABOT instead with the SABOT given the correct direct fire range for AT work which will differ from the max fire range it can use for indirect work.

You will no doubt be happy to know the Polish Sexton is indeed set up with a "regulation standard ammunition loadout" but the Brit and Australian unit will not be changed to match and the Canadian version has been lowered to 98 HE keeping the 7 sabot.

It is extremely rare when an OOB "error" is truly a "game-changer" that makes any serious impact at all on overall gameplay and there are so many sources of info that there will always be some difference between them and I have no doubt that even if another quarter-century goes by and this game is still being played that someone, somewhere won't find a source that differs from what's in the game.


Finally. I do not have the time nor the inclination to detail responses like this anymore. There is a fine line between an OC "fan" with WAY too much time on his hands determined to let us know about every "error" he can find in a 13000+ unit database and a passive/aggressive troll determined to expose every perceived flaw in the game to "prove" how terrible our fact-checking has been over nearly a quarter-century of work. These posts of yours do have a sort of "Vendetta" like quality to them beyond just trying to help make the game "better".

Whatever the reality, and it may be a combination of the two, this is getting to the point where a more "final" solution is applied. It's one thing to point out errors and MANY people have over the years but it's quite another to be as obsessive about it as you are and I have Shrapnel games full support.

Take the hint.

[zovs66]

Well said DRG! Thank you.

[Kiwikkiwik]

I would appreciate it if you would stop misquoting me. I never used the word 'proof', I said 'looks like'.
I also never used the word "Poove" at any point either.

About the Maultier, there are several other models with the 12 racks, I picked the crappy one because it is assembled. There is also a museum exhibit but the footage only shows one set of 3 racks clearly. 20 rockets is fine by me. I don't post all the evidence for my assertions as you have to told me to try to keep my posts brief. generally I only mention an internet source when it differs from what is published, not when it agrees.

"Just 98 HE" means "Just 98 HE(type)", not "Just 98 Total shells".

Thats very interesting about the indirect AP/Sabot, thanks for that.

Sorry to hear you consider me a troll. Not sure why, my posts are polite. Im actually a fan, do you really think Id bother putting up with the abuse if I didn't like the game?(have a read of Mobhacks latest reply about the CS tanks, embarrassing really) I thought I was helping you with your fact checking. As you are fact checking I would have thought you would be happy to hear about game errors, especially those that are easy to fix. A brief response or no response is fine by me.

The "Errors" I list aren't perceived they are largely facts and are about 99% correct. I don't make them up they are from the relevant literature on the various subjects. Those authors have researched their particular subject matter very thoroughly and are often experts in the field. I am just supplying their work for you, so you don't have to buy and read the book yourself, a great saving for you in time and money.

Just for interests sake I use windows in high contrast mode which makes the white backgrounds black and is less stressful on the eyeballs which is why I missed the maultiers second weapon slot having 10 more rockets. Mobhacks dark blue writing is virtually invisible against a black background. I did mention this already, I imagine I am not the only person that uses black paper (High contrast setting, etc)

I would point out that I have Identified two game cheats to yourself in the past. I have identified a third one now as well.

[DRG]

He's gone for good now. He stepped over the line with his remark about Andy. This game would not exist without Andy. The same cannot be said about him.

He may actually think what he was doing was "a great saving for you in time and money." but as I said I do not have the time nor the inclination to continue pointing out his errors and misconceptions about the game especially with the mega posts he loved so much because there were enough of them that nothing could be trusted without fact-checking every line.

There have been others on these forums who have also pointed out errors found but I learned in most cases their info could be trusted with only the occasional double-check..... not so in this case

We have said many, many times in the past that anyone can find sources that differ and that was as true 23 years ago when we started as it is now.

[troopie]

My response when somebody says the amount of ammunition for a unit was different is to say, So What? The same unit can be issued different amounts of ammunition, HE, AP, Smoke, Flame according to what's available, the mission, the time of year, the expectation of the enemy. If an armoured car is going to face only, or mostly infantry, it will need more HE and less AP.

Let's all stop quibbling.

troopie