Patch Post #1 for the
2018/2019 Patch Campaign. Note: I guess I did get started on this to some degree. What you're seeing was as it was submitted in the MBT Thread. I just moved things around a little to put the countries in proper order and added a couple of minor details.
So...
I will endeavor here to fix the South African current tank situation that I’ve put off for almost seven years now though the problem isn’t as daunting now as it seemed back then as also posted. I looked back on this year and I saw more in the MBT and APC area submitted by several posts, so for FYI ONLY PURPOSES, I’ve decided to pull together from those posts, a “Patch Post” covering the 2018/2019 Campaign and possibly for the 2017/2018 Campaign as time allows. They have always served me as a tool to see what got in or not and to see if something got missed such as what happened to about seven countries concerning the missing (Now done.) standard equipped FN MAG 60-30 MG (Port/Starboard mounted.) on the H225M Cougar helicopters. I also believe we were finally able to add this helo to Thailand as I finally had more data to fully confirm the deal as compared to when I originally submitted it in my last “official” Patch Post five years ago, this last was in 2017/2018 upgrade. Also I’ll be
focusing on the T-90S and ABRAMS issues, like I normally do, they just happened to “
pop up” while looking into other issues.
SOUTH AFRICA/CHANGE/OLIFANT Mk-1A/UNIT 005/START DATE 01/1985 vice 01/1983/END DATE 12/1987 VICE 12/1998/MAIN GUN 105mm GT3B vice 105mm SA83//A note about the gun issue as quoted from Ref 3 “The Olifant Mk 1A was originally equipped with a 105mm L7 rifled gun barrel originally sourced from Israel. Later on, an improved South African produced GT3B semi-automatic quick firing gun manufactured by Lyttleton Engineering Works (LEW) was fitted.” Also note in anticipation of facing the Soviet T-55 and T-62 tanks, SADF did acquire the 1O5mm APFSDS-T round (In 1988 around a year after they had received the APFSDS M-111 @ 390mm of RHA.) which in combat proved highly effective against those tanks. This was considered the first true African tank very suited to its environment with the High Pressure GT3B proven to be very accurate at 2km. Besides an extensive reference list it also provides some interesting combat data to prove this tank was deadly against its adversaries. It would also prove to be an embarrassment the Soviet (Combat Advisors), Cuban and Angolan FAPLA troops. Operation Hooper would see in that successful Op, 21 T-55 tanks destroyed to 1 damaged Olifant Mk1 and 1 destroyed Ratel. Troops 4 SANF killed to 480 casualties to the enemy during this Op during the South African Border Wars 1966 - 1989.
SOUTH AFRICA/ADD/OLIFANT Mk-1A/COPY UNIT 005/CHANGE/START DATE 01/1988/END DATE 12/2025/CHANGE/AMMO 105mm APFSDS-T/PENETRATION 580mm OF RHA/LRF MIGHT NEED TO BE INCREASED FROM 16/REFS INDICAITE THE LRF WAS ACCURATE OUT TO 10km//I know ammo is a consideration and given the difference between the two most current of the APFSDS rounds (1987-1988) in regards to Penetration levels this warrants the above request. It would suggest as well that the ammo is more powerful now.
http://www.army.mil.za/equipment/wea...ant_equipm.htm
http://www.army.mil.za/news/news_2017/feb_17/acd_17.htm
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/co...lifant_MkI.php
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.ph...in-battle-tank
SOUTH AFRICA/CHANGE/OLIFANT Mk-1B/UNIT 006/START DATE 10/1991 vice 01/1991/END DATE 12/2025 vice 12/2015/VISION 35 OR 40 (Or TI/GSR 35 see below)/MAIN GUN 105mm GT3B vice 105mm GT7/STABLELISER 4 vice 3/SURVIABILITY 5 vice 4/STEEL HF 28 vice 24 (Note Mk-1A UNIT 005 is at 26)/STEEL TF 24 or 25// The FCS was considered a very advanced for the time when the tank came online in 1991. That the vision should be increased is not the real question here as it is much improved over the OLIFANT Mk-1A. The real question is should it have TI/GSR added to it? I’m on the fence about this based on the refs below, my “gut” tells me it might be good enough, however, it also tells me based on the tanks that had it at that time, it should be TI/GSR 35 if it is decided to add in this fashion, I don’t see enough to warrant more than that. The gun did have mounted on it an IR/White Light Searchlight as well. I asked for the slight STABLELISER increase based on ref.2 as quoted “A new thermal sleeve and fume extractor helped improved sustained accuracy when firing and reduce barrel droop due to heat by as much as 70%-90%.”, that’s a significant change. Concerning SURVIABILITY the Mk-1B also had a double armored bottom added to the hull. The STEEL requests are based on the refs which noted that the armor protection was increased on the areas noted above.
It is important to note that 44 OLIFANT Mk-1A were upgraded to this standard starting in 1991, but, the similarities end there, this MBT was built from the experiences gained during the Border War 0f 1966 – 1989 and they were RESET. Development started in 1981/82 when the concern was whether the Soviet Union would supply Cuba or the Angolan forces with the T-72A series tanks which didn’t happen. The was built for African combat, this tank was even equipped with two internal water tanks (50.5 Liters each.) just to sustain the crew in the field. The turret bustle was added for the same reason for crew equipment with the added design bonus that the turret was better balanced decreasing by 10s the 360 traverse time to 16s over the Mk-1A turret. %
http://www.army.mil.za/equipment/wea...ant_equipm.htm
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/co...n-battle-tank/
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.ph...in-battle-tank
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/olifant_mk1b.htm
https://www.army-technology.com/projects/olifant/
SOUTH AFRICA/CHANGE/OLIFANT Mk-2/UNIT OO8/START DATE 10/2005 vice 01/2007/SPEED DISCREPENCY SEE BELOW// The upgrade of
26 OLIFANT Mk-1B tanks to the Mk-2 started in 2005, it is reasonable to assume a handful were in the field by that time. Production ran until the end of 2006/early 2007 depending on source. The SPEED issue needs to be resolved for both UNIT 006 and UNIT OO8. They both use the Continental 29 Liter V12 Turbo Charged diesel engine, the difference is that the Mk-2 engine develops 190hp more but, the additional weight of the Mk-2 doesn’t allow so much for an increase in SPEED, but it does increase P/W Ratio and much better 25% increase in Acceleration. The advertised speeds for both are 58Km/h or 36mph on the road. This is in the end a very highly advanced tank with full “Hunter Killer” capabilities and up to date electronics. There is one discrepancy which goes to the main gun ref. 2 with communications as noted in the “Bibliography” from 2017 indicates this tank also carries the GT3B MG, however, ref 3 (Bottom) via an email in 2006 states the following “GlobalSecurity.org insists the tank is fitted with a Denel GT8 gun but Denel informs this weapon was developed but never produced. The Olifant is therefore fitted with the GT7. Email communication between author and Denel spokesman Sam Basch, August 14, 2006.” I know which I’m inclined to go with, however, I leave it up to you whether you wish to change it or not.
http://www.army.mil.za/equipment/wea...ant_equipm.htm
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/mo...n-battle-tank/
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.ph...in-battle-tank
Summary:
The final question here is, do we add another Mk-1A & Mk-1B ~2010 with improved ammo that they should have now? Why? DENEL after the embargo started to sell their top quality ammo and other technology worldwide. But due to mismanagement and corruption, in 2005 Rheinmetall bought 51% controlling interest in DENEL munitions now called Rheinmetall Denel Munitions. Hensoldt did the same with DENAL Optronics operations. I don’t see those two major players sitting on their “laurels” and not improving their products over what was there. Maybe I’m wrong, just a thought.
https://www.africandefence.net/denel...qatari-offers/
While doing research on this over the years and considering the political situation at the time these tanks were developed, the South Africans found a way to overcome the very real war they were in for 23 years (As noted above.) to meet the perceived threat of the T-72M and T-72A series tanks. As it was pointed out, again above, the T-55 & T-62 were no match against them even by the ones crewed by the Cubans. I think a fair amount of this is also due to the professionalism of the SADF crews and ultimately the military as a whole which in most battles were outnumbered by the combined Cuban and Angolan forces with Soviet advisors. Another point of interest was that many of the tank battles were fought within 150yds. due to the terrain.
Also about the tank guns,
Israel supplied upgraded versions of the famous British RB 105mm L7 when South Africa wanted to improve their
CENTURIAN tanks to the
Israeli SHO’T tanks. This would lead to the
OLIFANT. Later deployment would lead to the
GT3B, GT7, IWI (?) GT8 Prototype and 120mm L52.
The GT3B is in service and with the
exception of the GT8, the rest are supposedly available or can be produced in numbers if needed rapidly. All the
105mm guns are considered “
High Pressure” (Before it became a “
thing” as it is now.) Semi-Automatic Quick Firing.
It was also very interesting to find that
Israel supplied South Africa with ammunition to include it’s tank ammo from possibly the late ‘60s but certainly the 70’s – ‘ 90s if not longer.
A final note on SOUTH AFRICA if I may…
SOUTH AFRICA/CHANGE/OLIFANT Mk-2B/UNIT 007/COPY REVISED UNIT 008/CHANGE STABILISER TO 6 vice 5/OPERATIONAL STATUS NOW KNOWN/GUN IS READY AND TESTED/POSSIBLE STORAGE OR READY FOR PRODUCTION/TANK NOT FIELDED//I’ve already proven that the Mk-2 Series was designed to carry any of the RB 105mm GT MGs plus the LIW (Thanks Don.) RB 105mm GT8 Prototype or 120mm/L52 MG. As discussed via PM I found credible information that GIAT Industries of France calibrated with DENEL to develop the LIW tank guns listed above. GIAT should ring a bell for some of you “tank nuts” out here, they made the guns (And more.) for the French LeCLERC MBT. It was also noted the characteristics of the LIW 120mm/L52 are a “close” match to the LeCLERC MG. It is important to remember the issue/limitation here is with the OLIFANT Mk-2 FCS though very good it’s not as good as the LeCLERC FCS. This is not my area expertise per say that being said is why I requested a modest increase in the STABILISER number. Based on the guns performance and pedigree should the STABILISER number be slightly higher? And within the limitations I’ve stated above, would the better gun effect any other of the numbers the OLIFANT Mk-2B currently has?
Don is a smart man and I feel he knows I wouldn’t waste my time on a tank that’s not operational if I didn’t see something of value in it concerning the game or the players.
So...
1) The tanks already in the game, yes it needs to match the hopefully revised UNIT 008, it’s the same tank only the gun has changed.
2) South Africa if it arms the tank with this gun, which could happen for many reasons nothing to do with either an internal or external threat, then it’s ready to go and you “flip the switch to on”.
3) The tank obviously can’t be “game ready” as it isn’t now, however, I thought there was a way to allow Campaign and Scenario designers to “unlock it” for their use w/o it being available within the game this I see can have a more immediate impact for the developers.
Finally concerning the
possibility of adding new OLIFANT Mk- 1A/1B and
now maybe Mk-2 tanks in the 2010 time frame from my last post, I came across this article for what looks like the replacement for the M111 APFSDS round as taken from the ref below Para 3, Dated 18 August 2011… “The Denel-developed M9718 105mm APFSDS round is 0.950m long, weighs 18.5kg and is fired at a chamber pressure of between 350 to 400 MPa to a combat range of 3km. The safety range is 30km. Dispersion at 3km is within 0.3x 0.3m and penetration is 450mm RHA. The tracer is visible to 3km.” again the older M111 APFSDS penetration was 390mm RHA which makes the M9718 APFSDS better by +60mm RHA. The last couple of paras might be useful concerning the ROOIKAT AFV ammo as well.
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.ph...t-rooikat-ammo
http://weaponsystems.net/weaponsyste...20Rooikat.html
I mentioned that
TAIWAN has a big issue so…
TAIWAN/CHANGE/MIA1 ROC/UNIT 025/NEVER DELIVERED/FMS NOT APPROCVED/CHANGE IN GAME STATUS TO UNAVAILIBLE/RECOMMEND SAME AS REQUESTED FOR OLIFANT Mk-2B BASED ON THE SAME THREE POINTS NOTED ABOVE.//All foreign countries can request U.S. made military arms via the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) Program this includes for both donated and weapons to be paid for. This issues that our weapons industry does not sell our weapons to foreign powers not friendly to the U.S. or that might let the technologies involved with these systems fall into the wrong hands. It also provides cover for the government in sales that could cause a potential international political issue. All sales have to be approved by several agencies and finally by the U.S. State Department, Congress and by the President of the United States. A recent example of this had to do with the sale of the current most advanced version of the JAVELIN ATGW the JAVELIN JV to the UKRAINE which went operational/fielded on 06/2018 and how it might affect the situation on the ground there. Those above tanks have been requested about three times since around 2000. Instead of the tanks we sold them the JAVELIN BLK 1 and later JAVELIN JV (The BLK1 units were updated to the JV.) I will provide refs that TAIWAN is now requesting the M1A2 ABRAMS. Ref. 1 from DID will bring you up to date on the current situation with the U.S. and TAIWAN arms situation and remember, DID lists their refs at the end and with links within the articles. This is an ongoing article. Ref. 2 has that “grab your attention” headline that gets folks all excited out here that they’re buying it and that’s the ONLY reason I’m posting to provide an example of how that tank made it in here in the first place. From Ref. 3 (To include Ref. 1) will provide better reporting. Bottom-line
no ABRAMS here yet.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...ization-04250/
https://www.theepochtimes.com/taiwan...t_2587925.html
https://tankandafvnews.com/2015/05/2...0-m1a1-abrams/
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/228...s#.XD13XHdFzoo
https://defpost.com/taiwan-buy-us-m1...-battle-tanks/
(See para 7 of this ref there’s news within the news there.)
https://www.janes.com/article/81684/...s-mbts-from-us
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/mili...r-its-defences
The
T-90S is the export version of the Russian T-90. A total by this fall of 5 export countries will operate the T-90S India (Advanced type.), Algeria, Uganda, Iraq and this fall Vietnam (Standard type.) Data Points…
1. ROSOBOROEXPORT is the Russian State run military equipment sales unit.
2. The Night Vision specs for the base model are Detection Rng. 800m and Identification Rng. 700m.
3. ERA standard is Kontakt-5 and the numbers look right for this pkg.
4. All export units have the SHTORA-1 “Soft Kill” System.
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/EQP/shtora.html
5. Standard equipped FCS does not support ATGM ops.
6. Only again, Russia and India have the advanced FCS/Optics the French made “CATHERINE”/”ESSA” systems and are capable of conducting ATGM ops. The first system is the same as used on the T-72 White Eagle tanks that Laos has just received and is entered in the game for Nicaragua and Russia from someone, by someone else.
7. In my opinion the Ugandan T-90S is the closest to the standard I see, and will act as the base unit.
8. Where I used SIPRI for verification the time period was from 2005 – 2017 which covered all the issues involved. That raw information will be provided for each country below.
9. I’ve tried to verify a few times by now any evidence to support the fact that these other countries might be using one of the advanced systems as noted in #6 above, I’ve been unsuccessful in doing so.
10. START dates are good unless otherwise noted.
ALGERIA/CHANGE/T-90S/UNIT 027/ EW 2 VIRSS vice 0/VISION 35 vice TI/GSR 40/DELETE M119M INVAR/FCS DOES NOT SUPPORT/FC 30 vice 35/STABILISER 5 vice 4/SURVIABILITY 5 vice 6//To further verify this I used
SIPRI the only Russian ATGM imported by Algeria was both the
AT-4 & AT-14.
185 T-90S Tank 2006 2006-2008 185 $1 b deal
(120) T-90S Tank 2011 2012-2013 (120) $470 m deal
(200) T-90S Tank (2014) 2015-2016 (200)
IRAQ/ CHANGE/T-90S/UNIT 035/ EW 2 VIRSS vice 0/VISION 35 vice TI/GSR 40/DELETE M119M INVAR/FCS DOES NOT SUPPORT/FC 30 vice 35/STABILISER 5 vice 4/SURVIABILITY 5 vice 6// To further verify this I used
SIPRI the only Russian ATGM imported by IRAQ was both the AT-6 & AT-14.
NORTH VIETNAM/CHANGE/T-90S/UNIT 033/START 10/2019 vice 06/2018/ EW 2 VIRSS vice 0/VISION 35 vice TI/GSR 40/DELETE M119M INVAR/FCS DOES NOT SUPPORT/FC 30 vice 35/STABILISER 5 vice 4/SURVIABILITY 5 vice 6// First shipment arrived in Hanoi in 01/02/2019. To further verify this I used
SIPRI and no Russian ATGM were imported by VIETNAM.
64 T-90S Tank 2017 Incl T-90SK version
https://www.janes.com/article/85463/...ive-in-vietnam
UGANDA/CHANGE/T-90S/UNIT 031/EW 2 VIRSS vice 0/VISION 35 vice 30/MG 125mm D81T 00 vice 125mm Gun 00//The base.
(44) T-90S Tank 2010 2011 44
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...t-can-do-40962
India will need further investigation I don’t understand why the STEEL and HEAT numbers do not match the above. I believe the current numbers are incorrect for the T-90S for India.
INDIA/CHANGE/T-90MS/UNIT 039/START 01/2022 vice 01/2019//SIPRI has no data on contracts (See VIETNAM above showing contract date.) or this tank in the time period (2005-2017) noted above. I believe they were signed in the fall of 2018. But this is India who stopped the ARJUN Mk 2 for the “desire” to acquire this tank as far back as 2012.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indi...armour-1640749
(2016-No APS system mounted per above.)
https://thediplomat.com/2017/01/indi...with-pakistan/
(2017-Still thinking about getting them.)
https://www.defensenews.com/land/201...russian-tanks/
(2017 We’ll try to develop our own APS.)
Then there’s nothing.
I also checked
almost 2yrs. worth of articles from BROADSWORD run by a retired Col. Of the Indian Army and currently a reporter with a major Indian newspaper, with negative results.
https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/
INDIA/CHANGE/T-90S BHISHMA/UNIT 036/START JUN 2002 vice JAN 2004/VISION 35 vice TI/GSR 40/NO EW INDIA DID NOT ORDER SHORTORA-1/CHANGEFC/STABILSER/SURVIABILITY/STEEL/HEAT PER REVISED UGANDIAN UNIT 031 AS SUBMITTED (UNDERSTAND STEEL & HEAT DONE)//
SIPRI 310 T-90S Tank 2001 2001-2006 (310) $600-700 m deal (incl 55% advance payment); reaction on Pakistani acquisition of 320 T-80UB tanks; 186 assembled from kits in India
INDIA/CHANGE/T-90S+BHISHMA/UNIT 037/NO EW INDIA DID NOT ORDER SHORTORA-1/SURVIABILITY**STEEL**HEAT PER REVISED UGANDIAN UNIT 031 AS SUBMITTED (UNDERSTAND STEEL & HEAT DONE)//These would represent the ones equipped with FRENCH THALES "CATHERINE" TI/GSR and supported FCS integration equipment.
INDIA/ADD/T-90M BHISHMA/COPY CURRENT INDIA T-90S+BHISHMA/UNIT037/START JUN 2010/ADD/EW SWEDDISH LEDS-150 APS 3 SHOTS/MG 125mm 2A46M-5 Rapira vice 125mm D81T 88/FC 45 vice 40/STABLISER 5 vice 4/ERA 16/16/0/16/16/0/16 KANCHAN ERA vice current 14 KONTAKT 5 ERA//All other current numbers for the "copied" UNIT 037 especially in the STEEL and HEAT areas are good as the armor package was improved for this version.
SIPRI 347 T-90S Tank 2007 2008-2012 (347) INR49 b ($1.2 b) deal; incl 223 assembled in India
INDIA/CHANGE/T-90MS/UNIT 039/NAME T-90MS BHISHMA II vice T-90MS/DATE CHANGE ALREADY SUBMITTED PER Page #88/Post #879 which was START 01/2022 vice 01/2019//
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/mo...0S_Bhishma.php
http://tanknutdave.com/indian-t90-bhishma-tank/
INDIA/CHANGE/ARGUN Mk II & ARGUN Mk II+/UNITS 022 & 023/START JAN 2023 vice CURRENT// I really don't think these will make it in the game at all in the "RW". I would say DELETE them, however, in India things "
can change on a dime"
Additional Refs to support the above…
http://weaponsystems.net/weaponsyste...0-%20T-90.html
(General data at top of page worth overview look. Scroll down to the T-90A section read general descriptor, then click on each T-90A and T-90S tab with the focus being on “Night Vision” upper right.)
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/land-forces/tanks/t-90s/
(See para 7 not exactly a ringing endorsement of the onboard FCS optics. Again as demonstrated above except for India’s T-90S tanks, the others listed don’t have ATGM system support or even ordered them. Do note India is not “off the hook” on this matter. Those tanks will be treated as a separate issue, because after all, it is India and tanks we’re talking about here.)
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/land-forces/tanks/t-90ms/
(See para 2, note the use of “…multispectral sights…”, that is a ringing endorsement and I truly hope everyone understands why and what the difference means.)
Bonus tank due to search of the above.
UGANDA/ADD/T-55AM-2/COPY/RUSSIAN T-55AMV/UNIT 016/START 06/2010/DELETE ATGM/THEY DIDN'T ORDER IT//The T-55AMV was the next upgraded version in the T-55 series from its predecessor the T-55AM-1. The ERA is definitely Kontaik-1 which is what the T-55AMV had//Understand specs are ready for inclusion.
(23) T-55AM-2 Tank 2009 2009 23 Second-hand; delivered via Belarus
1000 9M133 Kornet/AT-14 Anti-tank missile 2010 2012-2013(1000) Kornet-E version
http://weaponsystems.net/weaponsyste...0-%20T-55.html
Miscellaneous Refs.
https://www.defencetalk.com/raytheon...-sensors-2307/
http://www.deagel.com/Armored-Vehicl...000516002.aspx
http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/...15m1a2sep3.pdf
http://www.benning.army.mil/Armor/eA...une2007web.pdf
(A very good article on the differences between UK & USA Armor tactics and training.)
All right from
back in the day. I was passionate in that segment,
a book anyone!?!
Regards,
Pat
Re: The FASTBOAT Patch page.
Re: The FASTBOAT Patch page.
Re: The FASTBOAT Patch page.
Linear Mode
