WinSP MBT: Das Reich

[RecruitMonty]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

Then there's the FA 283 an apparent jet powered gyrodyne, which could be used as the basis for a series of German light utility/attack helicopters in the 1960s.

I had seen that too. What an interesting design. I wonder if it is feasible? It screams attack helicopter. Only problem is it is jet powered and in the mid 1940s that meant high fuel consumption.

The flight characteristics would be peculiar as well I imagine.

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by RecruitMonty

I had seen that too. What an interesting design. I wonder if it is feasible? It screams attack helicopter. Only problem is it is jet powered and in the mid 1940s that meant high fuel consumption.

Well, I look at it in the same way the Messerschmitt P.1101 in 1945 was studied heavily by Bell for the X-5 of 1951 that tested different wing geometries in flight, which eventually led to the F-111A of 1964, the MiG-23 of 1967, and the Tornado of 1974.

So figure the Fa 283 V0 flies in maybe 1947 or 1948 and has some intruiging characteristics, like hitting an extremely high top speed for a VTOL/STOL craft, but poor payload performance from a dead stop (no power to rotor apparently) and high fuel consumption kind of do it in.

Eventually it's reworked circa 1949 or 1950 into the Fa.283 V1 which turns it from a simple gyrodyne into a compound helicopter by the addition of a 100-200 hp piston engine in the fuselage which turns the rotor; significantly improving payload carrying capability from a dead stop and other low speed flight characteristics. But the piston engine takes up too much room in the fuselage.

A couple years pass; and in 1952 or 1953, they re-work it again into the Fa.283 V2 which uses a 500 SHP turboshaft engine adopted from an experimental turboprop. The turboshaft is pretty bulky compared to modern (c.1960s) turboshafts, but it's significantly less weight and bulk than the piston engine.

Suddenly, it's possible to have a useful fuselage payload. Also, maybe around this time, they also replace the jet with a turboprop engine; and from there on, you have the family tree that leads to your "Von Cheyenne" that's in the game as the Do.410.

[RecruitMonty]

Prior to the 410 you have the 407 too. A design from 1966.

[IronDuke99]

The problem I can see with this, if you will forgive me, is if you allow almost every German Prototype, let alone drawing board idea, to become a real weapons system, then you have to do more or less the same for other nations too, or you are giving the Germans an advantage they never actually had or could have had.

In reality US, British-Commonwealth and Soviet Russian weapon development all slowed down from about Spring 1945, since Japan never could have held out all that long after the fall of Germany, with, or even without, an US/allied 'A' Bomb.

So to do this, with any realism, you also need to look at Allied paper projects or, at least Prototypes, and turn the best of them into real weapons...

[IronDuke99]

To give an example of what I mean: In a alternate world where Germany is still a very powerful, agressive, nation then projects like the US Sabre F86, Russian Mig 15 and British Hawker Hunter all need to be moved up in time. Germany would never have the field to itself.

[Suhiir]

I'd be inclined to ignore paper projects entirely. Some of them (such as Project Habakkuk - the iceberg aircraft carrier) while actually technically feasible required such an outlay of resources as to make them impractical.

The same goes for early prototypes (i.e. non-functioning mock-ups).

Stuff that actually had a (reasonably) functional prototype in testing I could see.

[scorpio_rocks]

Originally Posted by IronDuke99

The problem I can see with this, if you will forgive me, is if you allow almost every German Prototype, let alone drawing board idea, to become a real weapons system, then you have to do more or less the same for other nations too, or you are giving the Germans an advantage they never actually had or could have had.

So to do this, with any realism, you also need to look at Allied paper projects or, at least Prototypes, and turn the best of them into real weapons...

This HAS been redressed a little with the inclusion of Soviet and other Heavy Tanks and a few "Paper Tigers".

Of course that would also be an inordinate amount of work!

[RecruitMonty]

I had a really detailed and good reply to this but my ****ing mouse decided to click on the wrong damn button (one of these Microsoft super mice with too much technology and piss poor interface).

Long story short.

Download the mod, (if you haven't already), look at what the Germans actually get, think for a second about the fact that most post-war projects in aviation, rocketry etc were pinched German designs / know-how and ask yourself just why design "slackened" from mid 45 onward for a while. I'll give you a clue - there was no one left to catch up with.

If you want to close the tech gap vis-à-vis E-75 and up then one bright spark who is mean with a virtual paint-brush can knock out some "Kitty-Killers". I'll do the rest.

The German kit is almost all based on designs that were going to be introduced. The rest is extrapolation very much within the realm of balance (you need to have a point of reference when you design an AFV from scratch and have in most cases nix to go on and that point of reference is invariably other kit from other oobs) and realism.

If you like I could put in some flying saucers.

The Do. 407 is already in the mod. I included it because the mod is already too full with analogue designs when it comes to helicopters.

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by IronDuke99

To give an example of what I mean: In a alternate world where Germany is still a very powerful, agressive, nation then projects like the US Sabre F86, Russian Mig 15 and British Hawker Hunter all need to be moved up in time. Germany would never have the field to itself.

The Ta-183 Huckbein, F-86, MiG-15 and Hunter would all cluster around the same time introduction (late 1940s), even with accelerated wartime development due to the peculiar characteristics of swept wings -- they're less forgiving of wing mismatches than straight winged aircraft -- in other words, the left/right wings have to be much closer to each other dimensionally than with a straight winged aircraft, or else one wing will stall before the other and cause a nasty spin.

Plus you're starting to encounter Mach Tuck in level flight (previously only encountered in high speed piston aircraft in dives), where your controls become steadily heavier and non-responsive as speed increases, and the nose drops and/or your controls reverse. Defeating that needs a lot of research into trans-sonic aerodynamics (and dead test pilots).

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by RecruitMonty

I had a really detailed and good reply to this but my ****ing mouse decided to click on the wrong damn button (one of these Microsoft super mice with too much technology and piss poor interface).

COMRADE. Microsoft Notepad is your saviour!

(type lengthy replies in it, then cut and paste into your browser window).

Download the mod, (if you haven't already)

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look at what the Germans actually get, think for a second about the fact that most post-war projects in aviation, rocketry etc were pinched German designs / know-how and ask yourself just why design "slackened" from mid 45 onward for a while. I'll give you a clue - there was no one left to catch up with.

I wouldn't go as far as that, but the one field that the Germans were undisputably the leader in was liquid propellant rocketry -- every major rocket since 1945 traces it's lineage to the A-4/V-2.

If you want to close the tech gap vis-à-vis E-75 and up then one bright spark who is mean with a virtual paint-brush can knock out some "Kitty-Killers". I'll do the rest.

That can be arranged.

If you like I could put in some flying saucers.

See attached

AVRO Canada was very big on saucer-like aircraft.

EDIT: I could SWEAR someone at some point did an Avro saucer icon.