Sighting

[Warmonger]

In the attachment the field of vision for Polish unit O5, an HMG platoon, looks strange. There are two hexes (30,35 and 31,30) which are not visible even though they are exactly the same as surrounding hexes.

[Imp]

Not really the unit is seeing through multiple sets of trees adding there respective hinderances then over fields adding theres. The cumulative effect eventually leads to blind hexes. If the LOS had been a bit further there would have been another non visible hex along that line.
Or in none game terms your view is hampered by the sparse trees down that view only.

Sure LOS hinderance including trees with you before.

[Warmonger]

There's a number of things about trees which don't make sense to me.

First is the pinhole effect. If you make a hole in a sheet of paper with a pin and hold it up to your eye you can see a lot through the pinhole. But if you move the paper a few inches away you can't see anything through the pinhole. Trees work the same way. If you are near a group of trees you can see through them, provided they're not too dense. But if you try to see through those same trees from a couple of hundred meters away you won't be able to see through them. In the attached example that should have been the case since the sighting unit was four hexes from the trees.

The other thing which doesn't make sense is that sighting obstruction would be intermittent on flat terrain. If sighting is blocked at a hex then all hexes beyond that hex should be blocked also if they're the same height. The same should hold true of visibility. If a hex is visible then hexes beyond it should also be visible up to the sighting range if the height of the hexes is the same.

Finally, I've encountered many cases where units will fire at each other for a few rounds in a turn and then suddenly can't see each other. The following turn they will see each other briefly and then not see each other again. In every case where this happens trees are involved. I have never seen it happen in clear terrain or where other obstructions such as buildings are involved even though the units are firing through visible smoke.

[Mobhack]

I think it was you we had this conversation with, earlier?.

Not all smoke is shown as a graphic. Small amounts of weapon smoke due to firing, or impacts (the sparkler going off) in a surrounding hex can add a point or 3 of smoke, but not enough to warrant a graphic. The larger WH weapons (e.g 50mm mortars and rifle grenades) will do a few points more thab small arms, obviously.

Add that few points to any terrain density (not the terrain height) in the hex, density comes from vegetation usually, and you can have a temporary blockage of LOS which does not last long.

Density adds to LOS blockage, and its cumulative. You can see its effect e.g. on large chunks of grass. It has less effect on high visibility maps, and on units with some night vision capability (mainly MBT). It may also have a bit more noticeable effect on a unit that is on the edge of the LOS "fan" of the spotting unit.

Terrain foliage/building density is not reported to the end user - unlike terrain height.

The SP engine has always had that feature in its LOS and smoke functionality - nothing new here.

Andy

[DRG]

Yes, this HAS been explained before. I really don't think it's a question of you not understanding , it's more a question of you refuse to accept the answerers that we give you and continue to believe there must be something wrong with the game because you don't like those answerers BECAUSE you have convinced yourself there MUST BE something wrong.

A big part of the issue is the shape of a hex. I explained that to you months ago when you questioned it in one of your early Polish games. Andy has explained that smoke accumulates even when it doesn't show a graphic.

Everyone, it seems , "gets" this but you.

Trees have "density", there is a threshold for blocking LOS. Sometimes it can take, depending on how the game randomly distributed the trees, two or maybe even three hexes of trees to block LOS in one direction, toss in a bit of smoke and you get "intermittent" blockage at a slightly different LOS....... if you sight on a hex say 20 hexes away and them shift to the left or the right one hex you may get more or less sight blockage at the point the LOS passes through the trees and part of that *may* be because of the limitations of using Hexes because at some point the game will tip the "you can see/ you can't" code see one way or the other. It may not always "make sense" to you but it does to us and virtually everyone else that plays the game and it's been like this in SP since forever. In some cases even one point of "smoke" could hit the threashold for "no see"

ALSO........ trees are NOT "all the same height". why assume they are ?


Don

[Warmonger]

See attached. Why is hex 40,45 not visible to Polish unit L2?

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Warmonger

See attached. Why is hex 40,45 not visible to Polish unit L2?

There are limitations on what you can represent with a hex and at some point.... the point you always question.. it has to make and "either-or" decision and every time you question these --and this is the third ( and the last... ) save game for sighting I have in the "Warmonger complaints" folder ---every one can be explained.

The roadway in 41,45 is 5 high. The roadway in 41,46 is zero but for L2 to see 40,45 the game "sees" right along the seam of 41,45 and 41,46 and picks up the higher height ( in reality there would NOT be an abrupt drop there but there is no way to show or calculate the transition so it's treated as 5 right along that divide between those two hexes )

Hex 40,45 is zero hight but because the game picks up the 5 height in 41,45 it classifies 40,45 as dead ground it cannot see. If you move unit L2 to the house in 41,47 you can see 40,45.

If you move L2 to the V hex at 42,45 you can see 40,45 because 42,45 is height 10 and sees over the roadway.

There is no "bug" --- everything it working exactly as it should for a hex based computer war game where each hex represents 50 yards/meters of ground

Don

[Warmonger]

Very good info, thanks.

One final question (I promise): In these 'down-the-spine' sighting situations, does it always select the blocking hex, regardless of whether the block is due to height or a terrain feature such as trees or a building?

[DRG]

I would say yes as that's the higher ground