Second Sun for income

Shangrila00 · #1 February 22nd, 2012, 03:01 PM

So I notice in CBM, Second Sun has been dropped down in research and in price to 35 gems. That puts it into really hard and difficult to justify spending pearls to dispel territory. So a temp neutral nation that took max cold scales for points can theoretically cast it to boost their income. Hopefully, the cold dominion and the heat effect fight themselves out and end up temp neutral in dominion for 15% more income, but at worst it can't possibly hurt, while it will hurt cold preference and temp neutral enemies.

The high casting requirements means probably only fire bless nations can cast it, but is it a viable strategy for them?

shatner · #2 February 22nd, 2012, 03:13 PM

I've never used this spell, nor have I ever seen it used (I doubt I'm alone in that). As such, I don't know to what extent that global works. Does it only shift the temperature three steps (so neutral to heat-3 or cold-3 to neutral), or does it just continue to shift the temperature until even a cold-3 nation is suffering from heat-3? Does it stack with the temperature shifts caused by the seasons? If it causes a max of three temperature shifts than Shangrila00's idea is pretty sound. If not, it really only makes sense for nations that have high heat preferences by default.

JonBrave · #3 February 22nd, 2012, 05:49 PM

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=34971

Shangrila00 · #4 February 22nd, 2012, 06:19 PM

Interesting. That thread seems to suggest that Cold Dominion indeed does "fight back" so to say against the effects of Second Sun, which definitely supports its use to increase income for temp neutral nations with max cold dom. The OP there though seems to be using a heat preference nation, going by his claim that going to Heat 3 in his dominion has increased his income.

@Shatner, heat preference nations would be silly not to just take heat scales for points. They would never benefit income wise: if they were already at heat 3, they would stay the same, while if they were at their heat 1 or heat 2 preference, they would be hurt. Heat preference nations would be hurt less than everybody else, but can't benefit. A temp neutral nation that took cold scales solely for the points though, could potentially benefit, as well as hurt everybody else if that thread OP is indeed correct that cold dominions don't end up at heat 3. Too bad he never came back to say what happened with Helheim.

shatner · #5 February 22nd, 2012, 06:33 PM

I agree that the net positive benefit for a Heat-preference nation is less than a temp-neutral, cold-3 nation. However, that cold-3 nation does need to deal with the gold loss of all of those turns leading up to them casting Second Sun PLUS all of those turns leading up to their reaching a neutral temperature.

I agree that taking cold-3 and then casting this is clever but you do have to account for all the time it'll take them to reach Evocation 6.

Shangrila00 · #6 February 22nd, 2012, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shatner

However, that cold-3 nation does need to deal with the gold loss of all of those turns leading up to them casting Second Sun PLUS all of those turns leading up to their reaching a neutral temperature.

I agree that taking cold-3 and then casting this is clever but you do have to account for all the time it'll take them to reach Evocation 6.

Oh sure, but isn't supposed to be some massive game changing strategy like casting Utterdark or something. It's just a little something you can do with an F9 pretender that is otherwise pretty useless, if you happen to need to take temp scales to balance out your points, and you don't have a preference. It's not that you'll have to take the pain from cold 3 until you cast it, but rather than you'll have to take an extreme temp anyway to have that bless you want, so why not take cold and have a chance to cancel it out later.

I guess the question is whether it might annoy other players into combining against you, which would be a problem seeing as how unlike other spells that do that, it doesn't give you some massive game winning advantage. Though it does have the advantage that it'll do pretty much nothing to heat preference nations who'd have little reason to want it down, and might even want to help you keep it up. So situational depending on diplomacy I guess.

Corinthian · #7 February 22nd, 2012, 08:27 PM

The main problem with the second sun spell is that it is a troll global that does little to benefit you and much to anger your neighbors. Even if it only costed 0 gems it might still not be worth it because diplomacy is gold in this game.

And also, compare it to Gift of natures bounty will ya. At best this spell can give you +15% to your income. At best GoNB will give you 200% to your income. It also dont piss of your neighbors in the same way. (Though maybe your income graph will.)

Shangrila00 · #8 February 23rd, 2012, 02:58 PM

The advantage of Second Sun over GoNB is that it's actually a lot cheaper than just 1/2 to go with its much lower effectiveness. It's fire gems rather than more valuable nature, and you don't need to overcast it much. GoNB is vulnerable to dispel because of its relatively high base cost, or overwrite if you aren't the dominant nature power. You don't care at all if Second Sun gets overwritten since you gain the benefits either way, and dispelling it will cost whoever does it more than it cost you to put it up.

Diplomacy wise, yeah, it depends on the other players. C'tis will thank you (and donate gems to make it stronger). Actually if C'tis is in the game and can cast it, it might be better for you to donate fire gems and get them to cast it. Most heat preference nations won't care and will gain overall as their enemies weaken (but not as much as you), same for underwater nations. So if you aren't vulnerable to attack from multiple cold/neutral temp land nations...

Definitely super niche though, I agree.

Shardphoenix · #9 March 1st, 2012, 07:11 PM

[quote=Shangrila00;796483]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shatner

It's just a little something you can do with an F9 pretender that is otherwise pretty useless, if you happen to need to take temp scales to balance out your points, and you don't have a preference.

Like high-bless LA Marignon, for example?

Shangrila00 · #10 March 3rd, 2012, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shardphoenix

Like high-bless LA Marignon, for example?

Ugh, taking a bless for flagellants.

Actually I was thinking EA Tien Chi. I had this half assed thought that since TC has tons of water mages that benefit from cold to increase the effects of freezing and a mid-late game fireball chucker summon that gets a boost from heat, it might be possible to get the best of both.

After some testing, I find I don't like fire bless on Wot5Es, and in any case EA TC offensive spells are all about acid and not cold at all.

Still, might be another nation that could use the idea.