Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Belac

On the 'using castle turns to recruit Shuten-Doji' question, there should be ample time to recruit them instead of Bakemono Sorcerers: When you haven't yet built a lab in the fort, and when you don't have enough money (because you have lots of forts and are recruiting Bakemono Sorcerers from several).

So somewhere in your empire, at some point, there should always be a place where you can recruit non-mage commanders.

I don't usually build forts without labs or from which I can't build a mage commander every turn, unless there's a specific non-mage commander that its worth building a fort or forts specifically for. (I can think of some examples - a fort pumping out spies is never a bad thing, nor is Jotunheim building a temple-fort for Jotun Jarl thugs.)

I honestly have no specific opinion on shuten-doji, although I'd be inclined against building a fort specifically for them.

[Ink]

yeah but look:

your not recruiting just shuten-doji, but shamans (stealth) and maybe Uba and Mujina as well.

an on building forts: you _might_ not build an extra fort in the early game, but by mid-game you are building extra forts just to have them closer to the frontline, if your not capturing them from your opponent.

It is inevitable you will have more forts than you can recruit a 300 gold Sorcerer from every turn; so exclaiming "these units consume castle time and are thus worthless" is pointless, because you will inevitably have more castle-time than you can use to recruit nothing but Sorcerers. If this is not the case, then you are probably not in a winning position.

EDIT: obviously, blitz play may change these dynamics, but then I don't think Baalz wrote the guide with respect to blitzes.

[Baalz]

Hehe, actually I wrote this guide based on a duel that I'm doing right now with WingedDog (he's Pangaea FWIW), with some extrapolations into late game. Got a second fort up and never put a lab in it as (with neutral production scales) I never had enough gold to get a Sorcerer from my cap and even max out the production queues in those two forts, never seemed worthwhile to slow the flow of troops with how fast they tore up Pangaean troops. I don't think anything else can compare to the income you get from order-3/luck-3 scales....having a good income then on top of that landing an extra 800 or more gold in an event translates into crapping out a couple hundred bakemono warriors...which is really just quite overwhelming.

He did start fielding minotaurs which prompted me to rotate in the Dai Bokemono, but otherwise those little warriors absolutely dominated the battlefield - centaurs, satyrs, harpies (I think he guessed I'd be massing low protection archers) everything just evaporates. Anyway, I found that having just 2 shuten-doji along with as few as 15-20 bakemono warriors is a ridiculously cost effective raiding squad. Sure, you're not conquering anything with substantial defenses, but you have the option to do some fun unexpected splintering of your armies for quick land grabs. The shuten-doji really do pretty well attacking on the front line (the aoe on the fatigue attack is substantial), give you lots of flexibility in moving/splitting your forces, and at 35 gold a pop are completely expendable.

[BigDaddy]

I'm guessing it sucks to see your centaus pillaged by goblin hordes.

I was in a duel with my brother and he used spine devils to dispatch my soul contract devils. They are so cheap that it's really rather disappointing. If their skills were a tick higher I'd call them under priced. I never bought them when they took 1 turn for one, and still thought they weren't worth it until they laughed at devils. Cost for cost they pack a huge punch.

So, ya, I feel for him getting his centaurs destroyed by goblins. 54 gold and 30 resources fill square. That is in premium or mid grade infantry range, but certainly not expensive. Not cheap, though. 9g5r isn't too bad for taking a lance charge, either. But, it's no slinger.

A pretender is a guy who conscripts you, gives you just a sling, and rather than telling you to fire at the cavalrly tells you to attack it... What a bastard.

[shatner]

I really liked the concept expressed in this guide so I decided to try it out. I'm enjoying the game but I'm having some problems. I'm playing a single player CBM game and the first opponent I really clashed with was Mariginon. I have found their forces to be really difficult to overcome with their high moral, high protection, long reach weapons and heavy evocations (even fire flies can be painful over the course of a protracted combat). Now, I am a beginner through and through so I am wondering what the expert response would be. My forces tend to be 20 - 40 bakemono archer set to fire archers, 30 - 60 bakemono warriors set to attack closest (unless there are casters to buff them, in which case it'll be hold and attack closest) and in front of all of that are some kappas or indies with shields to soak arrows, set to hold and attack closest. When possible I have sorcerers to cast Strength of Giants and Legions of Steel before throwing spells at the enemy.

The other big problem I have been having is a crisis of cash. I have Order 3, Luck 3 and Magic 1 (all other scales are neutral) with random events set to rare. Getting armies of goblins led by a Shuten-doji and maybe including a sorcerer for buffs has me strapped for cash. I have been unable to justify building additional forts except in the swamp adjacent to my capital (it's funny how many troops even a swamp can churn out... when you have the cash) because my empire is in a constant state of flux as I skirmish and clash with Mariginon (and to a lesser extent, R'Lyeh and Pangaea). I have recently captured Mariginon's capital but even with that I'm still looking at an income of roughly 850 gold and an upkeep of roughly 350 gold. With funds like that, I am not sure how I am supposed to be financing my expansion while building fortifications AND popping sorcerers and the like. Again, any tips would be appreciated.

[Trumanator]

Umm, events set to rare would be at least part of the problem. L3 is heavily nerfed at that setting.

[thejeff]

My suspicion is you expanded too slowly. How many provinces did you have when the war started and what turn was it? You should have been able to use much smaller armies against indies, though those sound reasonable for a war with the AI, depending on what he's using.

Agreed about the Luck scale as well. With Order and rare events, Luck won't get you much. Ditch that to at least neutral and take growth, production or more dominion.

[Ink]

Order and Luck together is never really a good option. Not that the Order gimps the Luck too much, but rather that you have the option of taking 1 point of Misfortune and getting some other scale instead. Why do something like O3 L3 when you could do O3 G3 M1 for the same price?

also, as other point out, Luck is worthless if events are set to rare.

[Trumanator]

Well, I just like not having to worry about random knight/barb attacks, plus depending on what nation you are you might have some excellent heroes show up. Sure its a risk, but hey, its more stress free for me.

[shatner]

I don't have access to the game right now but my (admittedly shaky) recollection is that I had about 11 provinces (mostly waste land and mountain provinces... there isn't a farmland within six moves of my capitol) when the war started in earnest around the beginning of year 2... I think.

I had two expansion forces, one led by my prophet (40ish goblin archers, 60ish goblin soldiers, 20ish shield indies) and one led by an experienced Shuten-doji (slightly smaller but with kappas and a couple of o-bakemono instead of indies). Unfortunately my site-searching squad (an E3 sorcerer, an F3 sorcerer, a D3 sorcerer and an A1/E1/N3 Kitsune hero) were killed when a Mariginon force proved surprisingly successful against my PD 10 plus the aforementioned Shuten-doji's force (though the Kitsune was able to sneak away).

Shortly thereafter my Celestial General awoke, led a big bad army straight from my capital to Mariginon's capital (almost no one routes with his standard effect nearby, and the Eastern Warriors make great arrow catchers), rescuing my prophet along the way. Mariginon is effectively defeated because, though they have a lot of territory, their god is dead and their capital is solidly in my control. That said, I've found my progress to be slow then and now and I've been surprised at how poorly my forces have (overall) fared against an equivalent Mariginon army.

Any advice as far as troop placement and orders to make an effective ant mob? I just get the feeling that I'm doing something fundamentally flawed in my troop commitment; the little buggers seem like they could be performing better. Or is Marignon an effective foil for the bakemono hordes? This is distinct from my money troubles and is my main concern (different maps and different scales could get me more money, but poor army layout will haunt me no matter what).

Thanks.