OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)

[Imp]

Sorry but I have read more of these posts not all mind.

Surely the mark of whether you are a good man has nothing to do with race religion. etc.
If some one has suffered missfortune & you go out of your way to help or share what you have leaving yourself short is that not more a mark of a good person.
Race & religion generaly make you a worse man if you are the sort of pesrson that takes them in to account rather than just treating the person before you as just that a person. If you actually happen to have picked the right God from those available I would also like to know how you earned the right to judge. I don't think its your call somehow.
I would also say modern society is bad look at western culture its collapsing. Family values, what sorry whens the last time you helped your neigbour, who lives 5 doors away from you, think of there name even let alone know them. Of course not you are living a cellular life community has died all you want is a bigger Plasma or car.
Sell my Plasma to help someone out you are having a laugh, of course the money you spent on it could keep several hundred people alive in africa for a few months. But hey its not my problem the goverments should do something about it.
Wake up people you elected them based on what exactly, so they are going to do as you do because that keeps them in power.
Off topic but all nations politics are lost because a big part of the vote is probably the sympathy bit, you can relate to them. How do you seriosly expect a guy who is an ex farmer, failed in the oil business despite millions being bunged at him to suddenly be capable of running a country & making sensible decisions. Not aiming at one nation they are all the same mine included & power corrupts remember.
You want a better world get off your *** & do something about it forget all segregation for whatever reason. At the end of it all you will know you tried & hey just perhaps somebody was watching. Strangely this person whether he believes in God or not actually strayed terribly close to the teachings of them all. Quite possibly he did it without wanting something in return just because he was brought up with a sense of values & managed to stick to them. It may have made him feel good about himself from time to time to.
Sorry for the spelling & not having ago but a few weeks ago I helped at the local school doing some work because my friends children go there & it was for kids.
The people there wer amazed I had given up a day (doing what exactly) to come & help. 6 parents had bothered to show up which kind of shows how much they value there kids futures let alone someone elses.
Society what society if it does not help me directly aint doing it.
Welcome to hell you live in it.

[Imp]

Slippery Jim
Here's the main point: God must be first for those who claim to believe in Him. He gave us His life. We must give Him our lives.

Here's the other point: If my parents do not believe in Jesus as Lord, they will not experience eternal life. There will be no happy ending for them. When they die, they will suffer for eternity

Sorry probably getting annoying now but can someone explain how this works.
If I understand correctly in a time when people did not travel much & word passed slowly due to the lack of things like transport & radio what happened.
All the people who had not heard so did not even get a chance to form an opinion just failed straight off, that does not seem like a fair & just God to me.
Have you not just denied anybody who lived before & those half way round the globe the chance because you forgot to tell them?

I also have a question for the people who believe in souls going on eternily, reincarnation if you will or something along those lines.
Either a lot did not get to play at the start or another world somewhere has died. My reasoning behind this is there are more humans alive right now than have died in the history of the entire human race. Better health & the bunny syndrome, 2 produce etc etc so where did these extra souls come from? Modern farming means despite loss of habitats "lower level" animals have not declined significantly until very recently.
Does not compute unless there is (was) extra terrestial life.

[capnq]

This thread is itself evidence for the resurrection of the dead. ;-)

Originally Posted by Imp

Even if you ignore all this there is one more problem, the saying "(absolute) power corrupts" seems to hold true. People with power seem to lose some morals.

From the science fiction novel "The Postman":

Originally Posted by David Brin

It's said that 'power corrupts', but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power. When they do act, they think of it as service, which has limits. The tyrant, though, seeks mastery, for which he is insatiable, implacable.

(BTW, the book regarded far better than Costner's movie; I haven't seen the movie, but the original novella was pretty good.)

With that in mind even if I am wrong & the bible did not get lost in translation by accident can you trust these guys interpritation on it.

One of the fundamental tenants of Protestantism (or at least Lutheranism, which is my own faith) is that the Holy Spirit assists the believer in interpreting the Scripture. One does not have to rely upon a professionally trained intermediary such as a priest to learn from it.

(That still doesn't guarantee that the believer will always interpret it correctly, though.)

[capnq]

Originally Posted by Imp

I would also say modern society is bad look at western culture its collapsing.

People have been saying basically the same thing at least since the Roman Empire passed its peak. "Western culture" has been "collapsing" since before the idea was coined, yet we're still here.

How do you seriosly expect a guy who is an ex farmer, failed in the oil business despite millions being bunged at him to suddenly be capable of running a country & making sensible decisions.

This is a terribly condescending slam on farmers. If you think running a farm doesn't require "sensible decisions", you should try working on one. Jimmy Carter was an ex-farmer, too, and many of the people who dislike Bush liked him.

[Imp]

One of the fundamental tenants of Protestantism (or at least Lutheranism, which is my own faith) is that the Holy Spirit assists the believer in interpreting the Scripture. One does not have to rely upon a professionally trained intermediary such as a priest to learn from it.

(That still doesn't guarantee that the believer will always interpret it correctly, though.)

Now this seems another stumbling block to me.
I can understand free will rather than have the message forced on us we are allowed to make a choice, its then our call & we get judged on our actions.
But if I have not understood it correctly how can I make a rational decision, also & nit picking does the holy spirit only help once you are a believer requiring a blind leap of faith or does he try & assist you to interprit it correctly & so become a believer?

An extreme example of misreading or more likely based on what you are told.
A badly educated & or uninteligent person is decieved by someone who is better educated/smarter into straping a bomb to himself in the name of religion.
Now am I wrong in thinking this is a true believer who is willing to sacrifice his life for his religion so is definetly a religous man.
His only error is being poorly educated/thick he is not a bad man that is the guy that recruited him.

As I said making sure the message is understood correctly is important.

[capnq]

Originally Posted by Imp

Sorry probably getting annoying now but can someone explain how this works.
If I understand correctly in a time when people did not travel much & word passed slowly due to the lack of things like transport & radio what happened.
All the people who had not heard so did not even get a chance to form an opinion just failed straight off, that does not seem like a fair & just God to me.
Have you not just denied anybody who lived before & those half way round the globe the chance because you forgot to tell them?

Skeptics have been raising this argument ever since believers started preaching the concept. I have my own answer to the problem that (sort of) satisfies me, but I'm not confident enough that I'm correct to try to convince others of it.

I also have a question for the people who believe in souls going on eternily, reincarnation if you will or something along those lines.
Either a lot did not get to play at the start or another world somewhere has died. My reasoning behind this is there are more humans alive right now than have died in the history of the entire human race.

This is a modern myth that has repeatedly been debunked.

where did these extra souls come from? Modern farming means despite loss of habitats "lower level" animals have not declined significantly until very recently.
Does not compute unless there is (was) extra terrestial life.

Why are you assuming that there is some kind of "conservation of souls", that new souls can't be created? Different faiths have different theories about this, but the universe is both big enough and old enough that the answer could very well be extraterrestrials, for all we know.

[Imp]

On the farm wholy agree it is a buisness & no idea how he did but when he tried moving up to oil failed miserably despite status giving him breaks. Now you want him to take on something bigger.
Like I say not aiming at him specificly most people do not get in for the right reasons.
Understandable really you do not know what it takes to run a country so you are electing someone to do so based on .....
The one thing I can think of is good management skills & a proven track record

Chalk one on the myth, learning stuff if nothing else.

[lch]

Oh, this thread is still not yet dead? I remember that I started writing a response, then had to abandon it due to lack of time and just saved it in some text file. Let me see how much I need to edit what I wrote now - having read nothing of the latter posts yet.

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

I never said that you have to change your belief system. I simply asked you to explain it.

I believe in the existance of the God of Israel, or "something" which men have identified as that, his sole existance and that the other religions "got it wrong somehow", I believe that the Bible is not just a fable but, concerning a couple of things, a historical document which aims to collect and preserve what has happened to record it. I believe that Jesus Christ existed, was a real person that lived about 2000 years ago, that he was chosen and exalted by God and did wonders like described in the bible and died for us and that the apotheosis/ascendance happened. I pray the Apostles' Creed and Lord's Prayer. I do not belief in the trinity, because it is something that is not in the Bible, but has been interpreted out of it some centuries later. I think I remember that this popped up during the last few days of the talks that we had before our confirmation, and if the presbyter would have insisted that I adopt this belief, then I would have refused to get confirmed. We settled somewhat for: he doesn't press the issue, and I get my confirmation. Though I have said myself that one shouldn't take the Bible by the word only, finding the right interpretation can go wrong.

I have no use for dogmas like "God is without sin". Man can't comprehend his motives and his existence, so the question if he can sin is useless. I consider myself pretty much nihilist, scepticist, and regarding things like these, agnostic.

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

The canonical Gospels don't actually differ on any substantive issues. Each Gospel writer picked up a few events that the others missed, which is what you might expect from four different eyewitness accounts. Even so, the Gospels are all in agreement on the "big" things.

Yes, they do. And while I am no first- or second-hand witness myself, I make my interpretations based on my knowledge and ability of judgment based on what they wrote.

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

I agree. Scriptural interpretation is very important. Of course, the next obvious question is how do you interpret Scripture? Theologians refer to this concept as Biblical hermeneutics.

Well, mostly I can give you "yes" or "no" answers, and the things that I say might even be conflicting. If there wouldn't be room for potential conflicts regarding these things, then everybody would necessarily have to adopt to Christianity. For some reason, that is not the case.

@KO: People have attributed me to the Islamic mindset not only in regards to my views on Jesus and the Bible, but on other views that I pronounced, as well. Well, that doesn't matter to me...

[Imp]

Skeptics have been raising this argument ever since believers started preaching the concept. I have my own answer to the problem that (sort of) satisfies me, but I'm not confident enough that I'm correct to try to convince others of it.

Not asking you to convince but if willing to post not forcing on anyone I asked.
Feel free to do as a PM rather than in the forum. I will just confirm reciept not comment on as feel I am coming across as judgemental which is not my aim.

This is a major sticking point for me though & if you look at the whole picture where you are born has a huge bearing on your chances.
Generalising but being born in the West say means you have a good chance of decent living conditions & are likely to adopt some faith involving Christ.
Being born in Asia possibly a worse standard of living & more likely to adopt another faith. So I would think its fair enough to say the odds have been stacked against you simply because of your place of birth.
If so for a God to be fair does he not have to judge you on your actions & the way you live your life with the fact that you believe him having little bearing on the outcome.
Does that make sense?

A discussion like this is far easier conducted face to face when you can keep pace with your thoughts.

[capnq]

Originally Posted by Imp

Like I say not aiming at him specificly most people do not get in for the right reasons.
Understandable really you do not know what it takes to run a country so you are electing someone to do so based on .....
The one thing I can think of is good management skills & a proven track record

< cynic >
Well, there's where your misunderstanding is coming from. We elect people primarily based on their ability to talk other people into giving them enough money to run for office.
< /cynic >