Orientalism in Dominions

[Omnirizon]

Orientalism is the representation of the Orient in and by the Occident. The 'Orient' nations in Dominions would be the Bandar Log nations including Lanka (India), C'tis (Egypt), Tien Chi (China), and Yomi/Shinuyama/Jomon.

Isn't it funny how all these nations, with the exception of TC, are flavored using anthropomorphisms and celestial/demonic themes whereas all other nations are just humans (or giant humans) of some kind? Does this demonstrate the effect of Orientalism in Occidental historical consciousness?

To TC as an exception, historically China and Japan are areas of the Orient that were never fully sublimated to Occidental empiricism. Thus they are always seen as duplicitous in Occidental representations, but rarely sexualized, mysticized, and romanticized in the way that other areas of the Orient were. Incidentally, China and Japan are the only modern competing world powers of the Orient. Both TC and Yomi as relations of their respective nations are still fully under the auspices of Orientalism as TC (and Jomon to some point) is portrayed as very authoritative and hierarchical, while Yomi et al are fleshed out with themes of devious demons. Both nations draw on celestial/demonic themes, things which are seen as irrational in the occident and complete the Oriental representation of these nations.

Not that I don't like the way these nations and their themes were constructed. The thing about Orientalism is that it _is_ the Orient. Its very emergence abolished on originary Orient. But to assume that it alone is responsible for the loss of a pure Orient is fallacy. The western theory that Orientalism draws upon tells us that there is no such thing as a pure history, or even "a history". The relation of these nations in both the Dominions and the Occident as a whole is only a performance then, not a static and deliberate representation.

[HoneyBadger]

Omnirizon, I'm not quite sure what you're arguing, or even if you're arguing something-either for or against, but the language you're using to (potentially) argue it is a little too heavy on the highbrow ideas, and a little low on conversational English, for me to form an opinion on it. It's going way, way over my head, and I'm not seeing the point of why it should...

Could you please reword that a bit, or atleast include some footnotes?

What I can make of it sounds interesting enough that I'd like to talk about it, but every time I try to start, your vocabulary gums me up.

[konming]

I hardly think Egypt is consider "oriental".

[Endoperez]

Many later nations have non-human themes to differentiate from the earlier nations, which were dominantly humans and humanlike giants. Monkeys, Yomon-Jomi nations, Agartha, animal-headed Fomorians are all new in Dom3. I think one of the reasons is that the human nations needed many new eras, and doing humans all the time was boring, so the new nations were chosen from ideas that would be fun to make - that is, not humans. That'd explain why we only got Eriu and Tir na Nog in a patch even though the theme was in Dom2, and why new nations have so many summons, most of them inhuman.

[OmikronWarrior]

Originally Posted by konming

I hardly think Egypt is consider "oriental".

When I spent time in France, a Morrocan encouraged me to visit his home country as it was "easiest part of the orient to go to." I think Europe in general has a much broader definition of "orient" then America in general.

As for the original post, I do not think you really thought your initial assumption through. Yes, TC is a human themed "oriental" nation. However, Pangea, R'Lyeh, and Atlantis are hardly human based or eastern.

[Omnirizon]

Originally Posted by OmikronWarrior

When I spent time in France, a Morrocan encouraged me to visit his home country as it was "easiest part of the orient to go to." I think Europe in general has a much broader definition of "orient" then America in general.

As for the original post, I do not think you really thought your initial assumption through. Yes, TC is a human themed "oriental" nation. However, Pangea, R'Lyeh, and Atlantis are hardly human based or eastern.

R'lyeh and Atlantis are underwater nations, so I chose to not consider them because its hard to be underwater and human at the same time.

Pangaea crossed my mind, but they don't represent a historical nation like most other nations do, but rather a mythical heritage. Same thing for Argatha, Fomo, and TirNaOg; all these nations represent some culture's myths, while that actual culture is represented in human form in another nation. Jomon is able to represent Japan in human form, while Yomi represents their myths; and I understand that this makes my analysis in regards to japan a little shaky. But Jomon only stands in for Japan in the latest age, while they remain represented as devious and demonic in their other ages.


@HoneyBadger:
Postcolonial theory, which Orientalism is a part of, has a long tradition of obscurantism. Postcolonial theory is social theory related to the events of and following colonization. Obscurantism is using a writing style so difficult to read and rhetoric so twisted and thick that text becomes "obscure". This is sometimes done deliberately out of the belief that text must be written in non-conventional ways to avoid hegemonic sublimation. Sublimation is the rechanneling of energy. Hegemonic sublimation is the rechanneling of energy to serve the hegemony. In the context of rhetoric this simply means that rhetoric would only serve to perpetuate the dominant hegemony, even if it appeared transgressive on the surface. Postcolonial theory is in particular sensitive to this because the entire tradition of colonialism, from the actual colonization to decolonization to development, has been to sublimate the colonized to serve the colonizer. Even things like development and aid only serve to eradicate the colonized's culture, modes, and history and replace them with those of the hegemonic power.

OK. now that said. I don't think my writing isn't obscurantist. However postcolonial theory does have its own heritage of words and concepts that it takes for granted. I'll explain a bit...

Occident is the west, Europe and America
Orient is the non-west and non-tropic
"Tropics" is a whole other issue all together. This is sub-Saharan Africa, So. America, and the Pacific Islands.

as Omikron points out, the Orient is much more than the far east. It is North Africa, Middle East, Sinia Peninsula, India, South East Asia, and Far East Asia. This is the Orient because these were the areas of the world that had goods which interested Europe or that they had to travel through to get to those areas of the world.

The idea that there is no Occident or Orient is key however. The idea that there is no "a history" is key. This is simply saying that Europeans constructed the Orient to themselves. This was to justify their behavior towards the Orient, so in turn shaped how they acted towards that area of the world and began to actually shape what "the Orient" was. _This_ in turn acted back on Europe and shaped what "the Occident" was. This is why I said that Orientalism is no longer a (mis)representation but a performance. To have it reflected in a game like Dominions is only a performance of Dominions "Europeaness". The availability of a mythicized Orient is only too perfect material for a game like Dominions though.

What is happening with this theory of Orientalism, the theory of how there came to be an Orient and what that is, is a critique of the constructing of the Orient. More generally it is a critique of the constructing of the "Other". The Other being anything which you are not.

This applies to what I had to say about Dominions like this: All of the Occidental nations are humanlike; these are "Self" to Dominions and its developers. These areas of the world are the Occident from which Dominions and its developers come. All of the Oriental nations are anthropomorphic and/or demonic: Bandar Log is monkeys, C'tis is Lizards, Yomi is demons, Lanka is monkeys and demons, Shinuyama is demon-like. I argued that TC remains human but that this is because China, TC's inspiration, is actually not mysticized and romanticized the way other Oriental areas were, but rather was always regarded as very hierarchical and authoritative. China was the most threatening area of the Orient to Europe, and they couldn't just romanticize them away. Rather Europe developed an idea of China that they could contrast with they way they imagined themselves; as an open industrious and market driven society. We see TC in the game represented with lots of commanders, each one being in some ministerial position or the other. Just like Europe imagined China in the Orient.

I'm against any "highbrow" and obscurantist stuff. But there is still a little background needed to understand Postcolonialism and Orientalism. Did I clear anything up?

[Ballbarian]

Huh?


(jk )

[Jarkko]

Yep, here in north we are all giants or dwarfs. Also, couldn't help noticing all those vampires, golems and living statues when I have visited Central Europe.


Or perhaps, I don't know, the devs got ideas from local myths, and instead of blind discrimination, as is subtly suggested in this thread, the playable nations are based on those myths, invented by the local people themselves? Maybe the OP has gone slightly over the top in his political correctness? Maybe he is one of the people who thinks "robbery" is a bad word and should be replaced by "self-iniative caused by an economically challenging situation on personal level"?

[Sombre]

I'm very familiar with post colonial theory (having studied under anshuman mondall - not that he's particularly important, he's just a harcore post colonialism nut) and even I think this is silly. You just decided to find for orientalism in dominions and started ignoring or emphasising to reach that goal.

Besides which the manual specifically acknowledges the influence of 'western myths of the ninja', the stories of Rudyard Kipling etc.

Also India is definitely a 'world power'. They are nuclear and are as important to the world economy/industry as China.

[JimMorrison]

Jarkko, you missed a great discussion on Political Correctness awhile back.

Omni, you think too much. People say that to me a lot, so thank you for giving me the opportunity to say it.