"MoD+Retreat" defeated w/o killing caster - Page 3

Aezeal · #21 July 18th, 2008, 07:13 AM

Well... if me and Sombre agree we must be right.. I think that settles it

K · #22 July 18th, 2008, 07:24 AM

Quote:

llamabeast said:
Any smart guy who plans to (ab)use MoD will only use it for the first time against a big enemy army. Few big armies are equipped to cope with it, so it's probably an insta-kill on that army at least.

I view that as a newbies' conception of a "big army", rather than an experienced player's conception of a "powerful army." I think that I've shown that an army prepared to deal with SCs and thugs should beat MoD + BE, so I'm not sure if it's an important issue.

I mean, a powerful army is composed of diverse elements using several different "winning" strategies. The late game is about mastery of magic, and not about mere strength of arms.

Considering that I believe that this is the one of the PC games I think has "1-2 years" time to achieve mastery (or at least competence), I reserve my judgment to whether adding this complexity to the game is "fair".

Sombre · #23 July 18th, 2008, 07:25 AM

Quote:

K said:
If he looks at the three games I've posted, I'll accept his judgments. I could create more representative games using different tactics, but I think the one's I've tested are enough to show the weaknesses of MoD + BE + Retreat, as well as everyone's potential ability to counter them in the endgame.

PS. The devs can feel free to email me at any time. I'd be happy to discuss this issue.

Would you please get your ego in check?

No-one cares whether you will accept the decisions of the devs, least of all them.

Tifone · #24 July 18th, 2008, 07:28 AM

I think the most proper thing to do would be just nerfing MoD down a bit, to make it lose its "unfairness" aura that many see, letting it remain a powerful spell if not properly countered, so making it more playable and enjoyable by everybody. But the 2 factions here don't move towards each other so we are not going anywhere together...

K · #25 July 18th, 2008, 07:39 AM

Quote:

llamabeast said:
I have to admit I'm sad that this has been toned down from a red to a purple bug. Regardless of whether it's counterable it's still a horrible bug to be on the receiving end of.

The funny thing is that the same tactics that are effective against SCs and thugs are effective against MoD + BE.

Sure, every army doesn't need to be able to deal with these tactics, but isn't that the key decision to make? (Either make a reinforcing army to join a diverse army or make a stand-alone army)?

calmon · #26 July 18th, 2008, 08:40 AM

I downloaded your first example K and build up the exact same situation 2 turns later.

I saved it and run it 20 times and your outcome happens in exactly 2 cases! In all other (18 times) the lanka commanders were fled to adjacent provinces and only your berserking troops existing in the province. (BTW: A good player would try to prevent a sucessfull excape by conquering the adjancent provinces)

At least in your first example i'm sure you tried it more than one time to get this outcome and you know that it was just luck!

So even with the fact you build up a perfect situation for a defence against MoD+Retreat you fail!

Tifone · #27 July 18th, 2008, 08:47 AM

Dun dun DUUUN

K · #28 July 18th, 2008, 09:17 AM

Quote:

calmon said:
I downloaded your first example K and build up the exact same situation 2 turns later.

I saved it and run it 20 times and your outcome happens in exactly 2 cases! In all other (18 times) the lanka commanders were fled to adjacent provinces and only your berserking troops existing in the province. (BTW: A good player would try to prevent a sucessfull excape by conquering the adjancent provinces)

At least in your first example i'm sure you tried it more than one time to get this outcome and you know that it was just luck!

So even with the fact you build up a perfect situation for a defence against MoD you fail!

Interesting. I ran it twice and since it worked I posted it. (And it was an individual battle example, and not a metagame example that considered overall war strategy).

Most importantly: where is your saved game? I'd like to check your results and see if you did anything wrong with scripting, unit placement, composition of units, etc.

That being said, the third game I posted is also a clear win using a completely different army composition and different tactics.

How many wins will satisfy the community?

calmon · #29 July 18th, 2008, 09:28 AM

Savegame Uploaded. Like i said. I just played another 2 turns of your game to fill up air gems to cast MoD and Storm (for Lanka) again. Nothing else changed so its exactly your starting position. I even gave more gems to the defending storm caster.

(The Mapfile is in K's first post package)

K · #30 July 18th, 2008, 09:45 AM

Quote:

calmon said:
Savegame Uploaded. Like i said. I just played another 2 turns of your game to fill up air gems to cast MoD and Storm (for Lanka) again. Nothing else changed so its exactly your starting position. I even gave more gems to the defending storm caster.

(The Mapfile is in K's first post package)

My battle takes place in Friendly Dominion(+1 Morale). Your battles probably take place in Neutral(+/-0) or Enemy Dominion(-1). Considering that your pretender is closer, it probably is enemy dominion.

That explains why my guys Retreat earlier in your games. Two points of morale is a big deal in a long battle.