US Sniper rifle???

[thatguy96]

Deputy said:

I just wish there was some way to send this crappy game (with the designer's attitudes it doesn't deserve to be called a "simulation") back for a refund.

Crappy because you don't have every specific sniper rifle you want? That's just a bit extreme.

[Deputy]

thatguy96 said:

Crappy because you don't have every specific sniper rifle you want? That's just a bit extreme.

Nope...if you have ever played the previous incarnation of this game, the SIMULATION called Steel Panthers: World at War, you will see that with input from users of the sim, it CAN be made much better. The developers of this game seem to think it has reached perfection, even though there are numerous people doing fixes to the OOB. I haven't seen this much negativity about user input since the days of the HIND helicopter simulation. Make an honest mistake in a comment and a wiseacre mod keeps throwing it back in your face OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. Yet they REFUSE to see the errors present in the game. Or they blow them off as "not having a major effect on gameplay". because it doesn't affect the way THEY play the game. Unbelieveable.
SP:WAW is no longer getting support from the original design team. But people are so loyal to that sim that they are constantly coming out with mods that make it more and more authentic as well as more enjoyable to play. As far as I can see, WinSPWW2 is at a dead end. NO input is welcome, whether good or bad, unless the person giving the input meets with their "approval". The mods and designers are so thin-skinned that ANY criticism, even if there are mistakes in the criticism, is ridiculed or dismissed outright. The forum at SP:WAW is active to this day with helpful posts and comments from users and mods. This forum is all but dead. The mods actually seem to discourage any changes because they think WinSPWW2 has reached some kind of "perfection".
Sniper rifles is just ONE SMALL example I picked out from MANY problems in the sim. But the mods have intimidated or discouraged pretty much ALL input from users. So be it. The best thing you can say about WinSPWW2 is they got it running good on WinXP. That's about it.

Dep

[MarkSheppard]

Nope...if you have ever played the previous incarnation of this game, the SIMULATION called Steel Panthers: World at War,



Hey genius; the previous incarnation of this game was Steel Panthers 1. SP WaW is Matrix Games' own take at updating Steel Panthers.

[Deputy]

MarkSheppard said:
Nope...if you have ever played the previous incarnation of this game, the SIMULATION called Steel Panthers: World at War,



Hey genius; the previous incarnation of this game was Steel Panthers 1. SP WaW is Matrix Games' own take at updating Steel Panthers.

Tsk tsk...such namecalling!!! Hey EINSTEIN, SP:WAW came out BEFORE WinSPWW2. But they are BOTH based on Steel Panthers.

[Mobhack]

From the Game Guide, right up front in the "What is WinSPMBT" section:

WinSPMBT ( Windows, Steel Panthers, Main Battle Tank ) is a Post World War II combined arms tactical level wargame.

Its time frame covers 1946 to 2020 AD. WinSPMBT has 92 nation's forces available for historical or "what-if" experimental battles. It is hexagon based, and the game is an alternating turn based (I go you go or IGOUGO) design.

One unit playing piece represents one vehicle or gun, or an infantry section or squad of up to 13 men or a section of 1 to 4 support weapons. Therefore, 1 machine gun or mortar "piece" CAN represent 2 or 3 actual MG or mortars.

One game hexagon represents 50 metres of terrain.

One game move (player 1 turn plus player 2 turn) represents roughly 2 - 3 minutes of 'real time'.

This is a wargame. It is not a "sim", you are the only one who keeps calling it so. If you want a tank sim - try Steel Beasts. It's used by militaries, in the "Pro" version. It apparently has a physics model for shell flight etc. And as explained before, for the sort of micro-detail between personal weapon types you seem to want, then there are real-time "squad level" games out there that may be regarded as sims, but I think they sell themselves as games rather than as simulations, per se.

So this is a wargame - a computer version of the 1/300 tabletop rules with micro-armour and model villages etc. at batallion level. Funnily enough - rule sets for such (e.g. WRG and Challenger, Firefly and so forth) - use generic "Rifle", "SMG", "LMG", "MMG", while differentiating between say a 6 pounder ATG and a 50mm L60, just like we do. And only one "sniper rifle".. Only skirmish level platoon level or less wargame rulesets will maybe have individual different personal weapons statistics.

However, if you feel you need dozens different individually crafted sniper rifles to fit your perceptions of reality in the game, then you have the Mobhack data editor at your disposal. You can hand-craft your own OOBS to suit yourself, but remember that there are a maximum of 250 weapons in each OOB!.

As explained before - differentiating between different sniper rifles, or smgs etc for that matter, will make zero actual difference in the game, bar adding unnecessary complication in the OOBs. And also it will use up valuable weapons slots in each OOB for what is essentially the same item. We already differentiate marksmen (plain rifle), basic snipers (sniper rifle) through to more advanced ones, by using units with different Fire Control and Range Finder values as has been previously explained in this thread.

Cheers
Andy

[Marek_Tucan]

On different variants though, on different engines. With different strengths and weaknesses. Some people like WaW more, some (me included) MBT/WW2.
Judging from the history of MBT/WW2 development, both developpers are open to suggestions or critics - as long as it's not based on blanket statements and is supported by evidence. Some suggestions make it to the game engine or OOBs, some not, as it's impossible to please everyone. And if you don't like the way OOB's are set, you are provided with all you need to modify them and try out how does the change affect the "simulation".
I can tell you from personal experience that slight differences in ranges or accuracies of sniper rifles don't play much role unless you want to try to harass enemy at max range. And then usually the sniper falls prey to mortars after his few minutes of glory.

[Mobhack]

Tsk tsk...such namecalling!!! Hey EINSTEIN, SP:WAW came out BEFORE WinSPWW2. But they are BOTH based on Steel Panthers.
[/b]

Hmm. Unfortunately, you are under a misapprehension there.

Please read the Game Guide "Release History", for a more complete history of the various mods we started, before the TGN-later matrix guys developed their own game based on the SP3 game engine, which became SP:WaW.

Don is the original Steel Panthers modder, without whom there would have been no SP series code development. It all started with his "camo" icons for SP1 and SP2, that replaced the blue-grey and dark-brown icons of those games (remember them? - if not, find an SP1 screen shot).

I came in when the originator of the SP1 data editor (I forget who, after all this time) was not interested in continuing on with one for SP2, and he provided me with info on the OOB data file format. Mobhack started as a MSDOS programme written in Turbo Pascal, then I developed Kobhack for SP3.

Later, we got together to integrate new icons by poking about in the game EXE to convert the SP2 engine from modern to WW2 (since SP2 had the PBEM replay amongst other features which SP1 lacked and SSI were not going to develop SP1 further) and so SPCamo got started. It was our work that got SSI interested in releasing the actual source code, and without that, there would have been no development either by ourselves, or later, by TGN/matrix pursuing their own different route.

When we parted company from TGN, we decided to stick with the SP2 codebase. The TGN team wanted to do it their way and we, ours. Creative difference, but no real problem since there is/was room for both approaches. People produce many sets of tabletop rule sets, after all. The only "problem" with having the 2 engines is some folk who seem to insist that one should only have the one or other installed on their computer since it is the "best" in their opinion. Plenty of tabletop wargamers own and play several rulesets - yet even there there is a minority who, say stick to 7th edition ancients as the only "true" rules, like some form of quasi-religion. Those are generally called "fanboys", and are a tedious waste of time, whatever the game in question happens to be.

Cheers
Andy

[Mobhack]

The best direct-fire anti-sniper bullet weapon in the game is another sniper. (Not a section with a sniper rifle in slot 4 ). Snipers enjoy no special advantages vs another specialist sniper, bar small size making initial hitting a tad less than a full sized section.

Next best is an MG unit class weapon, esp if firing from beyond the snipers own rifle range. MG unit classes have a few less problems with the snipers size, and if they miss, usually it is to the adjacent hex, so the splash will cause some "S" anyway (and share the joy with any neighbours he has, too! ).

Andy

[Marek_Tucan]

True about counter-sniper-snipers and MG's. However a little mortar barrage comes in hady anytime

[RVPERTVS]

DRG said:
Thanks. It's just about the best Christmas present I could ask for.

Now..........if anyone else thinks the game has "death rays attached to the bombs" or that "The P-51 Mustang seems to be a flying Tiger tank. " or that "the OOBs slanted so much at an Allied advantage in WinSPWW2 that altering the Preferences makes no difference whatsoever" or that even when the game user preferences are reduced to the lowest possible number for the US side you think that " Even with those changes in the preferences, the US Infantry appear to be supersoldiers." or that you totally misinterpret the help manual info that... "HE Kill - the value of the round at killing soft targets. Bigger is better!." and then jump to the conclusion that this means "it's only measuring the size (diameter) of the projectile vs it's damage to humans" ( HE kill has nothing to do with warhead size if this is too confusing ) and then claim " the OOBs are going to need some major reworking to get them correct. " or if you want try to make the point that there is ". No way!! " the " Thompson and MP38/40 is shown as having a 3 hex range." because you think "each hex is 250 meters across " ( it's fifty and always has been and even SP3 was "only "200 yards across ).......IF any of you reading this believe all that ( or even some of it... ) Please follow Dep off this forum.

........and all that came out in less than 40 posts

I am quite willing to discuss real or imagined flaws in the game but all this was so over the top as to be trollish.

Don

WOW Don this guy really pissed you off!! I get your point.

Perhaps the main issue is that Deputy totally missed the fact that SP is indeed a game depicting miniature wargaming with virtual (and far cheaper) units and terrain and the PC runing the combat throws, arty routines and morale checks(which makes it a more practical depiction of the tabletop) just as Andy says, not a simulation.

Big fact indeed because I haven�t yet seen any simulation played in turns

Keep up the good work!
Robert