Question - Fire Control and Range Finders

Suhiir · #1 November 26th, 2007, 01:51 PM

According to Mobhack Help :

Fire Control - This affects accuracy, especially against moving targets. Values over 99 are fire control radars, with 101 being better than 100. Field changes colour if AAA radar is issued. AAA radar is only worthwhile for AA units, obviously - SP SAM, AA guns, SP AA guns. SEAD aircraft seek out units with active AAA radar - there is no EMCON in SP. Anti-radar missiles may destroy the radar, if not the firer. (As a reference point, 5 was used as a maximum in WW2 data - e.g. king Tiger )

Fire Control of 100+ is radar
Note that FC101 is FC 1 with Radar, but can track planes through smoke and darkness.
Only AA systems with radar get targeted by anti-radiation missiles, and they seek these out automatically . There is
no need to point an ARM equipped plane at anything specific on the map.
Radar equipped AA weapons WITHOUT Thermal Imaging sights should NOT see ground targets through smoke,
only helos and other planes.

Range Finder - This makes hitting targets easier, especially for firers who did not move. 20 is the level for laser range finders, use 6 for the ranging coaxial rifle calibre MG as used in UK tanks, or 8 for a ranging .50 MG as used in Chieftains. Use around 6 to 10 for optical range finders as in the M48/M60/Leo 1. values under 5 tend to be used for WW2 type tank sights. For reference - 4 was generally the max value in SP 1 (e.g. panthers) barring some specials (e.g. 8 for the Nashorn, which used a stereo optical range finder of artillery observer type).

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Looking at various OOB we see Fire Control-Range Finder values of :

0-0 Infantry units
0-0 Pedestal / pintle mounted weapons on vehicles
1-1 Tripod mounted infantry weapons with a T&E (i.e. machineguns)
2-2 The M40 106mm Recoiless Rifle with it ranging .50cal
3-3 For "foxhole" type fortifications
5-5 For "bunker" type fortifications
10-10 Snipers (as opposed to just "mere marksmen")
15-16 Chieftain Mk 2
20-16 Chieftain Mk 3

**********

OK, we have the above listed information and "standards" for SPMBT.
I assume the reason for giving vehicle pedestal / pintle mounted weapons values of 0-0 is that while they're effectively mounted on tripods they lack a T&E (Transversing and Elevating mechanism).
I assume the values of 3-3 or 5-5 given to fortifications represent the range cards, cleared fields of fire, etc. common to fortified positions.

What I'm not about is the value of 2-2 given to the M40 106mm RR (and for that matter the SMAW with it ranging 9mm). Mobhack Help seems to indicate they should have a Range Finder value of 6 to 8.

Also, should wire guided ATGM's perhaps have a Range Finder value?

Thoughts?

Mobhack · #2 November 26th, 2007, 02:35 PM

Those values in the Mobhack help have never been updated. Ranging 50 cal mgs are now usually about 15, and you will find some autocannon have R/F "inbuilt". The WOMBAT/MOBAT series are at 8, for a 50 cal ranging semi-auto, which may be rather low (RCL with such kit was surprisingly accurate, the drawback being the backblast that said "here I am"..). Other RCL with 50 spotting rifles should probably be similar. Will look into that.

The values have changed over time, and what something should or should not be is rather a matter of taste. in your own OOBS, feel free to determine your own scheme, as the points calculator will adjust the cost to suit.

ATGM do not need range finders, it is built into the code (RF and FC may help, but we use the same scheme for these as in SP2 & 3 (none), and I am not going to pick my way through several thousand lines of C. Feel free to run a few experiments of your own, if required).

Cheers
Andy

Suhiir · #3 November 26th, 2007, 08:23 PM

Thank you Andy.

Does this however open up a big nasty can of worms ?

If s ranging 50 on a tank now has a value of 15, and the spotter rifle in a WOMBAT/MOBAT is 8 shouldn't the crew served weapons (tripod mounted weapons with T&E's) have a higher value then 1 ?

Mobhack · #4 November 26th, 2007, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Suhiir said:
Thank you Andy.

Does this however open up a big nasty can of worms ?

If s ranging 50 on a tank now has a value of 15, and the spotter rifle in a WOMBAT/MOBAT is 8 shouldn't the crew served weapons (tripod mounted weapons with T&E's) have a higher value then 1 ?

The ranging MG on a tank is an MG, it fires 3 round bursts from a belt of several hundred rounds. A spotting rifle on an RCL is a semi auto weapon firing from a box of 12 or so rounds, so 8 or maybe 10 would be worthwhile, maybe.

Unlikely to make much game difference, even if we left everything alone. RCL life expectancy tends towards zero, whether towed or jeep-mounted.

And, what exactly are "T&E's" ???

Cheers
Andy

thatguy96 · #5 November 26th, 2007, 08:34 PM

"Traversing and Elevation"

Its the piece of equipment that allows an MG in the sustained fire role to be more accurately stabilized and aimed at longer ranges.

See in this picture of the M60 on the M122 tripod

Suhiir · #6 November 26th, 2007, 09:27 PM

It's a device that attaches to a machinegun (AGL or whatever) tripod that allows the weapon to be aimed very precisely at any target in range.

http://www.keepshooting.com/firearma...ism-tripod.htm

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/M60.html

A trained machinegun crew can use it to hit a helmet size object at 500m. It, along with the rate of fire, is what makes a machinegun the much feared and first targeted weapon that it is on the battlefield.

PlasmaKrab · #7 November 27th, 2007, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Mobhack said:
The ranging MG on a tank is an MG, it fires 3 round bursts from a belt of several hundred rounds. A spotting rifle on an RCL is a semi auto weapon firing from a box of 12 or so rounds, so 8 or maybe 10 would be worthwhile, maybe.

Unlikely to make much game difference, even if we left everything alone. RCL life expectancy tends towards zero, whether towed or jeep-mounted.

I got some complaints about this while modding the Austrian OOB, and I gave a try to upgraded 106mm RCLs since they also carry spotting rifles.
I gave them 5 FC and 10 RF, which apparently ends up average in the spotting MG/rifle value range.

Just ran a test game with my modded Austrian M-40A1 Jeeps side by side with stock Canadian M-40A1 Jeeps with equal morale/exp ratings of 60/60.
At 750-800m against moving T-55s, the original jeeps get about 12% PHit, against a consistent 30 for the modded version. So yes, there is some game influence.

Granted, I dunno how much my FC value took prevalence over the RF one, and how much that FC value is justified.
Similarly, I can't comment on cost variations since other values have been tweaked.

And of course, the life expectancy in turns can still be counted without letting go of your mouse.

Mobhack · #8 November 27th, 2007, 09:17 AM

SFMG in the game already have 1 FC and 1 RF (and also cause splash effects in the adjacent hex) - e.g. Unit 180 in the UK OOB.

Cheers
Andy

Suhiir · #9 November 27th, 2007, 01:06 PM

Also looking at the OOB's MMG's tend to have a base accuracy of 21 so while RF might "better" represent their increased accuracy firing while stationary the base accuracy and ability to splash into adjacent hexes probably covers things fairly well.

Plasma
Thanks for the info on your tests.
Given the nature of recoiless rifles I'd be inclined to give them even less in the way of FC. Hitting moving targets in particular isn't something they're going to really proficient at. As I understand it RF will help them hit any target, moving or not, if the firing weapon is stationary.

pdoktar · #10 November 27th, 2007, 07:02 PM

Hmm.. not sure about "bad" hitting of moving targets. Given that RR�s were designed to engage armored vehicles, that are seldom stationary in combat, I doubt that it�s inherently worse at engaging moving targets than say AT-guns. Of course their muzzle velocity is slower, but this should be already considered in its accuracy rating.