Kugelblitz and Company.

[oragus]

King Tiger, no....tooo slow for an AA vehicle. Panther II, probably, but its turret ring would be too small also.. From what I have read on the Panther II, it was not designed to carry an 88mm. It was to carry the 75L100 gun. The Panther II would have been faster than the King Tiger but slower than the Panther because of the added weight from the armor they added to it. Supposedly the Panther II was larger, but by looks of the hull at the Patton Armor museum, by naked eye it don't seem like it. I haven't actually seen any of the specs on the hull any where, any one have those? Or detailed drawings maybe...hint...hint...Mark..?

[RecruitMonty]

Panther II or Panther F? I always thought the Panther II was bigger.

[oragus]

Panther II. The Panther F was basically a Panther G Late model with the new turret. The Panther II was a "redesigned" hull with extra armor. I have seen the Panther II hull at the Patton Armor Museum first hand and it don't look any bigger, but every thing I have read says its bigger. Hence the request for anyone on here that might have dug up some specs for it, would be appreciated. It was Germany's attempt at actually having some cross plateform commonalities. The King Tiger and Panther II were to share as many parts as possible. Mainly the suppension was used from the King Tiger and other internal parts.

[RecruitMonty]

I just went and stuck a Panther two turret on a Kingtiger chasis. matched them up and away they went. It works quite well. Not very imaginative I know but, what the hey.

Auf Deutsch:

Bewaffnung/Armament: 7,5 cm Kw.K. (L/70) oder 88 mm KwK 43 L/71 1 - 7,92 mm M.G. 42, 1 - 7,92 mm M.G. 34
Panzerung/Armour: 100 mm vorne, 60 mm seitlich, 40 mm hinten
Gewicht/Weight: 53 Tonnen
Motor/Power Plant: Maybach HL230 (Drosselleistung 600 PS, konstruktiv 700 PS)
Geschwindigkeit/Speed: 46 km/h
Besatzung/Crew compliment: 5 Mann
Baujahr/Year of Construction: 1943

"Die Panzerung sollte auf eine 100 mm (120 mm) starke Frontalpanzerung (frontlarmour at 100-120mm) und eine 60 mm-Seitenpanzerung erh�ht werden (60mm side armour); auch sah man eine �berarbeitung des Chassis vor. Parallel mit der 1943 begonnenen Entwicklung des Tigers II wurde mit der Planung des Panther II angefangen (Tiger II and Panther II begun at same time). Auch hier sollten die Komponenten wie Lenkgetriebe (steering gears), Vorgelege (transmission), Laufrollen (Cam rollers/runners etc), Aufh�ngung (suspension) und Antrieb (drive train) untereinander austauschbar sein (used by both models), um Ersatzteilproduktion und Reparatur zu vereinfachen. Das Gesamtgewicht stieg durch die zahlreichen Modifikationen auf �ber 50 Tonnen (weight increase due to modifications up to and over 50 tonnes)."

Source: Wikipedia.de

[oragus]

I can't speak or read German Monty, a little help with a translation would be appreciated.

Well, I can tell you this, there is a King Tiger right in front of the Panther II hull at the Patton Armor Museum and they are not the same or even remotely close to the same, other than the road wheels are the same. The Panther II hull looks extremely similar to the late Panther G model hull. I didn't get a look at the back deck though to see if there were differences there. . But everything from the ground level looks the same. So if you are going for something accurate, mounting a Panther II turret to a King Tiger hull is not accurate.

[oragus]

PANTHER II
-----------------------------------------------------------
During summer 1942, even as MAN began manufacturing its two Versuchs Panther pre-production tanks, the High Command had already grown concerned that the level of protection the new tank possessed might prove insufficient for the combat conditions likely to emerge on the Eastern Front in the immediate future. The initial German response was to investigate the feasibility of adding 20mm-thick bolt-on armoured plates to strengthen the vehicle's protection, as had been done previously with the Panzer III and IV tanks. However, MAN soon discovered that such work presented extraordinary technical problems that effectively precluded up-armouring the existing Model D design in this manner.
This setback forced the Germans in December 1942 to begin thinking of a new Panther version - the 47-tonne Panther II - that had thicker homogenous armoured plates. The Panther II was to have 100-150mm-thick turret and hull frontal armour instead of the 80-100mm thickness on the Model D. In addition, its side armour was to have 60mm-thick plates instead of the 40mm plates carried by the Model D. Controversy still exists today as to the precise details of the Panther II project, in part because there remains ambiguity in the extant German documentation. Tom Jentz has argued that in December 1942 the Panther II design remained identical to that of the Model D except for the thickness of the armour. Walther Spielberger, in contrast, believes that from its very inception the Germans intended the Panther II to incorporate significant features that would distinguish it markedly from the Model D.
Jentz argues that it was only during mid-February 1943 that the Germans altered the initial Panther II design to make it more than just an up-armoured Model D. For now, the High Command decided that the new tank would incorporate many features of the Panzerkampfwagen
VI Model B King Tiger heavy tank then being designed by Henschel, as well as have a completely new turret design. Spielberger, however, believes that commonality with the King Tiger was a key inspiration behind the Panther II design from its first inception in late 1942. Irrespective of these debates, both scholars agree that by spring 1943 the Panther II design incorporated features of the King Tiger, including the 700bhp Maybach HL230 engine, and resilient steel-tyred, rubber-cushioned, large road wheels. While the King Tiger would mount nine pairs of these road wheels, the Panther II would have seven pairs of identical wheels. The original Panther, in contrast, had eight pairs of non-steel-tyred road wheels. Even the 60cm-thick tracks of the Panther II would act as the narrow (transportation) tracks for the King Tiger. Incorporation of these features raised the weight of the Panther II to , 51 tonnes. During February 1943, the High Command contracted DEMAG to commence development work on the Panther II, then slated to enter service in September 1943, and simultaneously informed the existing Panther manufacturing firms that they would continue producing standard Panther tanks only until late 1944, and then switch over to construction of the Panther II.
The health of the Panther II project, however, declined significantly during summer 1943, and in June plans to develop the tank were temporarily halted in favour of continuation of the Model D and Model A production runs. One explanation for this was that the Germans had discovered that by adding Schurzen side skirts to the Model D, the risk posed to the vehicle's 40mm hull side armour was significantly reduced; this development undermined a major justification for developing the Panther II. Consequently, during July 1943, the High Command contracted MAN to produce just two prototype Panther II vehicles. With the impetus for the Panther II project dwindling, and given the many other pressing production demands MAN then faced, development work on the two prototype Panther II tanks languished. Indeed, by the end of the war, MAN had only completed one Versuchs Panther II chassis, but without a turret. The American Army captured this vehicle in the last weeks of the war, fitted it with a recently completed Panther Model G turret, and shipped it off to America, where it remains today on public display.
The turret the Germans earmarked for the Panther II never got beyond the design stage, and today controversy still exists over the precise form it would have taken. Initially the Germans planned to mount in the Panther II the same 7.5cm KwK 42 L/70 gun mounted on the standard Panther tank. Spielberger argues that the Germans intended to mount this gun in the Narrow Turret (Schmalturm) then being developed for the new Model F Panther tank. Jentz, however, argues that the Germans intended to mount a slightly different turret in the Panther II - the Narrow Gun Mantlet Turret. Whatever their precise designs, both turrets sought to reduce the size of the turret front and mantlet, to help increase vehicle survivability. To further complicate the matter, during February 1945 the Germans began work to re-arm a modified version of the Narrow Turret with the 8.8cm KwK 43 L/71 gun of the King Tiger. From this Spielberger contends that if the Germans intended to mount the Narrow Turret in the Panther II, it follows that from spring 1945 they planned that the Panther II would mount the 8.8cm-gunned Narrow Turret and not its original 7.5cm-gunned version. Other plans that the Germans developed later in 1945, however, suggest that they simply intended to mount the 8.8cm-equipped Narrow Turret on any available Model G Panther chassis, to form (in effect) an upgunned version of the Model F Panther. Clearly, in the chaos that increasingly engulfed the Reich in the last months of the war, the Germans unveiled all sorts of often contradictory plans concerning future tank development. Given that German firms never completed a single Panther II tank, it seems unlikely that these controversies over what turret and main gun the vehicle would have mounted will ever be definitely solved.

"PzKw V Panther Medium Tank 1942 - 45", Dr Stephen A Hart, Osprey Publishing, pages 17 - 20.

Your translation to all that is as good as mine. All my personal knowledge on it is I have seen and some where have pics of the Panther II hull that is here in America. This particular source talks of the 8.8cm being mounted, others which I have read say the turret ring was too small for such a mounting. So again, your translation is as good as mine.

Either way, it don't really matter, there was only one hull built the rest is speculation and interpretation.

[oragus]

I found the pic of it at the museum.

[RecruitMonty]

Look carefully and you will see that all the important info has been translated (it is in brackets like this). The tank at the Patton museum is a prototype tank isn't it? It is more than likely that the tank there is unfinished, hence the turret looking the way it does. The gun on the Panther II was supposed to be mounted in a Schmallturm and was not meant to have the muzzle on the end of it. Just a plain barrel. For all we know the Americans might very well have captured a Panther F and thought it was a new model. Mind you I'd still like to know where their turret ended up.

How much does the regular Panther weigh? This one weighs over 50 tonnes. How can the drive train, transmission, road wheels, suspension etc be the same if the tank is smaller or basically the same as the original Panther series? If everyone (well most everyone) choses to model it like that then that is how it should be modelled.

Yep, Panzerlexikon.de states that the Prototype the Amis captured was unfinished. It also states that the original model from 1943 was continually developed and improved durng the course of the war. What is needed is accurate information about the projected design from 1945. It also states that the one captured by the Amis was definatley missing the turret, hence the Panther G turret.

[RecruitMonty]

Well, just pick the optimal loadout then. The Schmalturm (Schmalturm by the way means small turret)developed by Mercedes Benz was smaller anyway. Shorten the tiger II hull a little bit and decrease the gradient at the front a little (last part only when necessary). As for the rear of the tank, well I see no reason why you can't just use the Tiger II layout.

[oragus]

You can tell the susupension is not of the Ausf F type. Not enough road wheels to be of Ausf F type. The Ausf F type had the same configuration as the Ausf G model, which had 8 sets of road wheels, with the exception they were using all steel road wheels, which the Ausf G Late models were using as well. The picture clearly shows 7 sets.

You are absolutely correct, it was to have the "narrow" turret mounted. None were finished. Yep the American installed a Panther Ausf G Late model turret on it. I know that a few of the "narrow" turrets ended up in Britian for testing. It would have been very cool to see the Brits send one of them over to us after their test so we could mate it up with the Panther II hull.

44.29 tons(45,500kg). Well, the drive train, transmission, road wheels, suspension, etc, were all a more heavy duty build. They were built for the King Tiger, a 70+ ton vehicle. Plus, you have to consider all the extra weight from the added armor all the way around. It adds up in a hurry with some thing so large. I agree with you that its probably bigger, but not by much. IE why I was asking for specs earlier. When I say bigger I am referring to a matter a inches longer, it will be a small dimensional difference, no doubt about that, but not the difference between the Panther G and King Tiger.

Panther Ausf G length: 22'6"
width: 11'2"
King Tiger length: 23' 9"
width: 12' 3"

For the record. I am just gabbin here, enjoying the debate. I don't get to do this often. Just goes to show ya how much detail I try to put into my work....lol. I know I know, crazy....LOL.