Size units - a question

[KraMax]

I welcome all.

At me such question to developers.
Infantry or paratroops - 5 soldiers will be the size 0?

In advance I thank for the answer.

[narwan]

No, the split is more or less at 4 men. If it's more then the unit should be size 1, if it less then it should be size 0. If it's 4 men it depends on the type. If it's a scout team size 0 is appropriate and if it's a fire team (as in half a US infantry squad) size 1 is more suited.

There can be exceptions off course, this is not a 'hard' rule. But for infantry and paratroop units this would be a rule to stick too.

[thatguy96]

I'd say the type of unit is the best way to play with size in the 4-6 man size range. Since there isn't a rule, its best to look at what you're trying to achieve. As Narwan said, if the unit is more scout oriented, than size 0 is more appropriate, whereas if its infantry then size 1 is more appropriate. The affect on cost between size 0 and size 1 is noticeable as well.

[narwan]

Many regular infantry squads are in the 5-7 men range and these should be size 1. If you start making infantry type units with 5 or 6 men size 0 there's no good reason why other regular squads with the same amount of men (or even less) should be a different size.

While size 0 is indeed appropriate for scout units, if the unit has more than 4 men it's not really a scout team anymore. It simply has too many people. And while there are few 'hard' rules when it comes to the size of units, this is the 'official' standard for game OB's. Over the last few versions a number of changes have been made (for MBT and WW2) to conform to this. There will still be a few exceptions but these should be exactly that, exceptions, and not the standard.

[KraMax]

Ok.
I have taken advantage of search and have found some discussion of errors in Belgian OOB.
Here that writes DRG:

"Another fun fact, your belgian 6 man para unit are not alone in being size zero, There are 117 other infantry units in the OOB's with more than 5 men and size zero (an issue, as I said, that is under review)"

Also I have found many units in game in the different countries with 0 size and names distinct from scouts, inf-at, inf-sam etc. But even if you also are right, let's look on American OOB - for an example unit 743, 744, 749 - scouts with anti-tank arms and the size 0. I am assured that experience of these scouts not much better than if they were called paratroops and them would be as much - 5 persons.

In what a difference between scouts and for example infantry? In experience, quantity of arms, quantity of soldiers etc. But we all it do experience and morals - we change modifiers, arms also we change by means of Mobhack etc. But than 5 persons differ from 5 men? Anything! Especially if to consider that we compare 5 scouts and 5 paratroops.

[Marek_Tucan]

You can view it by rationalising that scouts are travelling light, so are more maneuvrable and can take cover behind smaller obstacles, while regular infantry or paras are humping lots of equipment - some time ago I have seen a breakdown of loads carried by every man in the US Light Inf. company and it was a LOT of stuff to get on with. Now such stuff like mortar ammo and ammo for Plt MMG/GPMG is concentrated in-game in the Mortar or MMG units, but that's and abstraction - IRL for example almost every man carries one mortar shell and one 7.62mm belt. This is of course heavy so he is slower, cannot move all that quickly (not thinking of walking here, but of say dropping to the ground) and with that big pack it is harder not to be seen even when prone.

Atleast my take on it.

[narwan]

KraMax said:
Ok.
I have taken advantage of search and have found some discussion of errors in Belgian OOB.
Here that writes DRG:

"Another fun fact, your belgian 6 man para unit are not alone in being size zero, There are 117 other infantry units in the OOB's with more than 5 men and size zero (an issue, as I said, that is under review)"

Also I have found many units in game in the different countries with 0 size and names distinct from scouts, inf-at, inf-sam etc. But even if you also are right, let's look on American OOB - for an example unit 743, 744, 749 - scouts with anti-tank arms and the size 0. I am assured that experience of these scouts not much better than if they were called paratroops and them would be as much - 5 persons.

In what a difference between scouts and for example infantry? In experience, quantity of arms, quantity of soldiers etc. But we all it do experience and morals - we change modifiers, arms also we change by means of Mobhack etc. But than 5 persons differ from 5 men? Anything! Especially if to consider that we compare 5 scouts and 5 paratroops.

You have to make a distinction somewhere. It's a necessary abstraction. Infantry units (including para's inf) are there to fight. Scout units (including para scouts) are there to gather info. The size difference is partly to model this functional difference. However, in order to do their job properly, scout teams can't be too large. Every man added does not just makes the group bigger, it greatly increases the needed for inter-group communications which in turn reduces it's scouting efficiency. Throughout the OB's the basic norm for scout teams is 3 or 4 men.

But there are indeed exceptions, as I already said. They can be there for different reasons; the simplest is that they haven't been changed yet.

If you want to compare you should look at the US marines OB. You'll see 6 men recon teams (patrols) that are size 1. You'll also see 4 men fire teams that have heavy equipment that are size 1 and 4 men fire teams that are size 1 without heavy equipment. You'll see 4 men scout teams with similar equipment at size 0. You'll even see SEAL teams with 6 men at size 1!

Narwan

[KraMax]

narwan
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In that continually. I in have seen all OOB. Also has not found any law of assignment of the size 1 or 0. Everywhere the sizes are placed to a miscellaneous. How we will admit to me to define - whether should paratroops 5 men be the size 1 or 0???

[narwan]

A paratroop infantry squad of 5 men should be size 1.

You're right that there is no general law. That's because it's very hard to come up with one. What would happen than is that people would argue over it endlessly. And find examples of it being 'unrealistic'. So there's just a general guideline and in the end the decision of the designers for official stats.

[KraMax]

It seems to me, that would be excellent, if developers here have expressed and have once and for all put an end in these discussions. It is necessary to clear a situation - how to put the size of a unit and why in one case it is put 0, and in other 1.