USMC Self Propelled Artillery

[thatguy96]

Oh, my mistake, I misunderstood what you were saying. My fault. Still, I think 4 is equally small for the unit to properly "function" inside of this game setting, regardless of what it is in real life.

[Suhiir]

Yeah I've been struggling with the ammo loadouts issue myself in my USMC OOB revision.

I figure we're "stuck" with certain things due to game conventions and AI limitations so I've been trying to interject "realism" with these in mind.

I'm hoping to put a beta copy of my revisions out by the end of September so I can get some feedback before I delve into the joys of a revised picklist.

[Mobhack]

KraMax said:
It probably will be soon corrected since in game an error.. 2S7 Pion - has appeared in 1976 with 4 shells onboard, 2S7M Malka - appears in 1983 with 8 shells onboard.

Unit #812 in the Russian OOB is the 2S7 Pion - and it has only 8 shells on board. However It uses the alternate form for low or nil ready rounds - It is an X3 radio code, so is only purchasable by the human player. Therefore, it is up to the buying human player to provide ammo reload, or if a scenario designer is daft enough to use it with ammo trucks, to do the same [/b]and[/b] state that the owning side only ever be played by the human (unless you like kamikaze ammo trucks <G!>). The AI will buy the other available units, with 30 or so plus ready rounds.

Whichever design decision the oob designer takes is up to him really, as he sees fit for a particular OOB. 20 or so ready rounds (even if the chassis cannot take them) is the way to go, if the piece is allowed for AI use. X3 radio code and a low count (whether in reality available on the chassis or not) is another [/b]if[/b] there are other units of that class available for the AI to use and the pick list actually uses that sp-arty class.

(Scenario designers really should not use any SP-arty with those few rounds on-board in a scenario. Unless perhaps in a very short one! . Even if playing stationary (defend or delay), ammo trucks might counter attack in the AI hands, or sp-arty pieces deployed near dumps or bunkers might be forced to move in reaction (e.g if damaged or routed). Very rarely, AI SPA if spotted (maybe not if dug in?) may also relocate to try to break the spot, and that can put them into a tank ambush position (as happened to some of my saladins trying to hunt down some soviet SPA once - they got whacked by the relocated SPA from ambush ! ))


Cheers
Andy

[KraMax]

I can not understand. Than 2S7 Pion and 2S7M Malka - with 4 and 8 shells, differs from the specified American systems? You can setup also 2S7 - code 90 or 91 for example and to give it 20 shells. Or I that that shall not understand?
The problem in that in game also is played and by e-mail, and turns out that the person buying for example M107 or M110 - buys a unit with unreal quantity of an ammunition (shells). Also it concerns also quantities of shots in a minute.

[Mobhack]

I cannot find any "2S7M Malka" unit in the Russian OOB, so please indicate which OOB and which unit number it is, so I can check it (Assuming it is in a stock OOB - third party user OOBs are not of interest).

As I stated earlier - it is up to the oob designer who did the OOB in question as to what route he took (Human only with a few shells and X3 radio code or "generic" 20 or so rounds). Either approach is fine - there is no "Grand Unified OOB Design Theory", just guidelines. You get charged for the shells, in any case.

Cheers
Andy

[KraMax]

Mobhack
--------------------
In game error.. 2S7 Pion - has appeared in 1976 with 4 shells onboard, 2S7M Malka - appears in 1983 with 8 shells onboard.

http://www.enemyforces.com/artillery/pion.htm

http://www.milparade.com/catalog/pdf/114.pdf

[PlasmaKrab]

Thanks for clarifying this, Andy. Personally, I had forgotten that the 2S7 is X3 in the original OOB.

So basically, the difference between US and Russian heavy SPHs is mainly in frequency of use. The 2S7 can get the real loadout because it cannot be used by the IA, while the M-110 can be used autonomously by the IA player.
Keep in mind that the M-110 is standard issue in US divisions, while the 2S7 is only used at army levels and above, right?

I'm of the opinion that the Russian OOB could do with a separate class for heavy SPHs as well (2S5, 2S7 and certainly the 2S4), but that's just a suggestion.

[DRG]

KraMax said:
Mobhack
--------------------
In game error.. 2S7 Pion - has appeared in 1976 with 4 shells onboard, 2S7M Malka - appears in 1983 with 8 shells onboard.

http://www.enemyforces.com/artillery/pion.htm

http://www.milparade.com/catalog/pdf/114.pdf

The problem here Andy is he has switched from discussing the unit that exists IN THE GAME to "reality" and what he is saying is in "reality" the 2S7 Pion was introduced sometime in 1976 and carried 4 shells onboard and the upgraded 2S7M Malka ( which we don't currently have in the game ) was issued with 8 shells on board.

When someone says "In game error" then starts discussing "reality" it gets confusing. That's we introduced a standardized error reporting procedure detailed at the top of this section.

We will look into the issue when we start work in the fall though I'm sure no matter what we do someone will think it should have been done differently

Don

[KraMax]

DRG
----------------
My opinion. If to increase quantity of an ammunition for artillery it is necessary to increase for all. It turns out that AI will not buy Pion because of code X3 - because this artillery of an army level, and American M107 and M110 - artillery of a divisional level. Well I agree. But at game on PBEM - the American player gets advantage in quantity of an ammunition, and the Russian player will not buy Pion because of small quantity of an ammunition and small quantity of shots in a minute, and on a background of that that American SP Artillery M110 and M107 2 shells, and Pion 4 can transport all this in a reality only. " The dead cargo " turns out Pion in game simply i.e. nobody is necessary since it often should be recharged an ammunition - that endangering and artillery and ammo carrier, and losing turns for recharge.
It can is necessary to remove simply from game such artillery of an army level - Pion, Malka, Tulpan?

[Suhiir]

I suppose you could remove such army level assets.

But then to be fair you should remove such things from every OOB since they all have a few.

Take for instance my work on the USMC OOB - we'd have to remove such things as HAWK SAM's because they're basically corps level assets (yes, they're part of the Air Wing that supports each division, but when you come down to it a Marine Division + Air Wing + Force Troops is basically a corps), and probably USAF (B-52's, F111's, F117's, CH-53 Pave Low's) and and USN (F-14, Seals) as units as well since they're not organic to the Marine Corps much less a division.

Just look at them as one of those things that's there as an option for scenario builders rather then something a player should expect to use in a battle.