why build starships

[Rusty_Nail]

I have been simulating starships recently. While they have tremendous power, I cannot see any use for them. They sit idly by while a planet is destroyed, and can only react if attacked. But any ship can simply choose not to attack starships as part of its firing strategy. It works fine. Voila! Pass through a warp point or capture a planet,with a starship defending, without firing a shot. Am I missing something?
Maybe the answer is that with warp points you are within firing range immediately, as opposed to simulation mode. Is this always true? But if the incoming fleet has the first random move, it can at least avoid the starship 50% of the time completely, and the rest of the time escape after absorbing one round of fire. Is this not so? Then is it worthwhile building these expensive monsters to defend warp points or planets?

[Q]

Do mean "starbase"???
I do not know of starships in SE IV.

If you mean starbase, then the answer would be to use long range weapons as e.g. missiles or anti-proton beams for the bases. The latter in combination with the mount that increases the range by 6 makes it difficult to ignore the starbase for an attacker.

[Dracus]

if your starbase is cloaked, it will not attack.

[disabled]

When I have to place heavy defenses at a warp point (which rarely is needed) I build a two-layered defense.

The first layer consists of a starbase and several space stations on the exterior (far side of the warp point I'm defending). This is designed to prevent any ships from reaching the planet itself.

The second layer is a simple area of mines & satellites on the interior (the warp point in the system I'm protecting). This way, should an enemy attacker get into my space, they must deal with heavy losses from a set of battles, mines, and satellites.

This leaves the foe (in most cases) weak enough for my outdated, light defense ships to take out.

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HADRIAN T. AVENTINE
[email protected]
Administrator | SpaceEmpires.org

[Rusty_Nail]

I meant starbase,not starship, and it is not cloaked and uses long range weapons. But I do not feel you understand my question. If an incoming ship is programmed to not attack a starbase (and why should it after all, when the starbase can be bypassed, just like a satellite?), than it would seem to perform no useful purpose. I have tested this. They are simply and easily ignored while the fleet takes on other ships and the planet. I can see only one use, and that is to build a ringworld, unless I have missed something. Maybe the problem is that most people have not discovered that you can avoid attacking them in strategic combat. Could that be?

[Rusty_Nail]

I should add that I am thinking of PBW here and should have said that. In single player it does make sense to build them because the AI never uses the "don't fire on starbases" option. It almost always uses the standard "optimal weapons range" which results in suicide missions against powerful starbases. But a human does not have to do this. In a way, using them in single player is taking advantage of the AI programming. The same thing applies to tactical combat. It is too easy to beat a superior AI force by "dancing" in and out with long range direct weapons and playing "just out of range". These problems could be dealt with by introducing some additional moving and firing options and letting the AI use them. I hope to post a note on some ideas on this another time.

[disabled]

Ahh... The Possum Trick.

when fighting an superior, yet slow moving/stationary, foe, just stay away from until combat ends.

Yes.

I think bases should have the ability to move in combat.

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HADRIAN T. AVENTINE
[email protected]
Administrator | SpaceEmpires.org

[Phoenix-D]

That works if the Starbase is around a planet, but if you've got a load of them parked on the other side of the WP, the enemy ships HAVE to come in range. The result can be..messy..especially if you get to fire first.

My Last PBW game, I had a well-defended warp nexus. Between the sats, space stations, and starbase, it took out at least a megaton (!) of shiping..most of that AI, admittedly, but the Starbase opened fire without taking fire first, since this was a 1.41 game, I was second player, and the attacker rarely got to fire a shot.

EDIT: yup. Just checked that game, and the starbase alone had 7000kt worth of kills! So they do fire without being fired on first, IF a target gets into range..

Phoenix-D

[This message has been edited by Phoenix-D (edited 18 November 2001).]

[Cheeze]

Here's one reason why you couldn't ignore one. With sufficient range, you can probably never take a planet without risking being attacked by the base, no matter if you choose to ignore it as a target. Although if glassing the planet was your goal, then that works fine. And if you wanted to capture the planet, then you must eliminate the starbase first, or else it will attack the now-captured planet. Or, should it be directed not to attack, it still blockades the planet, meaning you received no resources, intel or research.

Perhaps it is also tied in with the unpredictability of the starbase's position in combat. In PBW, when I tell my ships not to fire on the planet, I have still lost more than a few who fly close enough to the planet for it to shoot at them while going after other targets. It probably wouldn't be any different.

While you will never see this in simulators, I have found that often when you direct your ships NOT to fire on a type of target (in my case planets), once they run out of things to shoot, they tend to just mill about aimlessly. I believe you would find in that in the warp point example, the ships would not move much at all, and many would wind up targets for an undamaged station.

You have found an exploitable situation, but not an unfair one. Starbases offer superior range and firepower compared to ships, but that trades off with an entire inability to do anything but wait for an attacker.

[This message has been edited by Lynx (edited 18 November 2001).]

[AJC]

Another tactic is to put fighters on the starbase guarding the warp pt. fighter launchers on space stations all around the starbase. This gives the starbase the ability to attack with some range after enemy ships move away.