The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.

[Andr�s]

That Jraenar picture was made by editing bitmaps. I do not have 3d meshes of original ships, and trying to model something that matches so good would be too hard. What I did was basically combine the dreadnought with the engines of the battlecruiser.
It was an experiment to see it if was possible, not all needed new ship sizes for all existing shipsets would be possible to make this way, but I think that there are a lot that can. The plan would be to replace most copied pictures in time.

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How soon are you going to get this going? If we are going to have this ready for the CD Versions, we need to get on the ball.

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Hopefully we can agree soon with the set of names. Then it will be a matter of S_J writing the copying program and dogscoff and me getting a few sample shipsets. It would be great if I can make at least the complete generic shipset, in a similar way I made tha Jraenar ship.

This is my proposition for all sizes of the neo-standard. 20 new size pictures to be added to the 29 original ones, almost dulpicating installed size
Format is
ShipPic - Alternative pic (copy source) - simple description.

Corvette - Frigate - Normal ship between ES and FG
DestroyerHeavy - Destroyer - Normal ship between DS and LC
CruiserHeavy - BattleCruiser - Normal ship between CR and BC
DreadnoughtHeavy - Dreadnought/Baseship - Normal ship between DN and baseship
Baseship - Starbase - Normal baseship
BaseshipHeavy? - Baseship/Starbase - bigger than baseship, not sure about this.
WorldShipSmall - None(use generic-neutral if not available) - Battlemoon/death star
WorldShipMedium - None(use generic-neutral if not available) - Battlemoon/death star
WorldShipLarge - None(use generic-neutral if not available) - Battlemoon/death star

ResourceShipSmall - TransportSmall - ship with reduced manteinance for remote mining
ResourceShipLarge - TransportLarge - the same but bigger

CarrierTiny - CarrierLight - carrier smaller than light carrier
CarrierMassive - CarrierHeavy - carrier bigger than heavy carrier

BaseOutpost - BattleStation - Base between battestation and starbase

ColonyShipLarge - ColonyShip - bigger Version of colony ship

TransportTiny - TransportSmall - smaller transport, presumable faster
Should we add a massive one?

FighterHuge - FighterLarge - bigger fighter
FighterMassive - FighterLarge/Escort - even bigger fighter

InfantryTroop - RacePortrait/Pop TroopSmall- very small troop
TroopHuge - TroopLarge - bigger troop


Here's the analysis of vehicle sizes in different mods I used to came up with the conclusion above. I think I considered the most important mods by now. I include my starwars mod only because it was mentioned in this thread, but I don't think it is comparable with those other great mods.

All vehicle sizes are listed in this format:
Name - PicName - Tonnage - Mod(s) where it appears

Mods:
None - Standard Unmoded Game
DN - Devnull Mod
P&N - Pirates & Nomads
UM - Ultimate Mod
SW - Star Wars Mod

Normal Ships:
Escort - Escort - 150 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Corvette - Frigate - 200 - DN
Frigate - Frigate - 200 - None/DN(250kt)/P&N/UM/SW
Monitor - Frigate - 250 - UM
Destroyer - Destroyer - 300 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Heavy Destroyer - Destroyer - 350 - DN/UM(GunShip)
Light Cruiser - LightCruiser - 400 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Orbital Battleship - Cruiser - 750 (slow) - UM
Cruiser - Cruiser - 500 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Heavy Cruiser - BattleCruiser - 600 - DN/UM(575)
Battle Cruiser - BattleCruiser - 600 - None/DN(650kt)/P&N/UM/SW
Battleship - Battleship - 800 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Dreadnought - Dreadnought - 1000 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Super Dreadnought - Dreadnought - 1250 - DN/UM(Behemoth)
Baseship - Starbase - 1500 - None/DN(Monitor)/P&N/UM/SW
Super Monitor - Starbase - 2000 - DN
BattleMoon - MassiveBaseShip - 10000 - P&N/SW(Small Death Star-15000kt)
Medium Death Star - mds - 30000 - SW
Large Death Star - lds - 60000 - SW

Both DN and UM add a 250kt ship, UM adds it as monitor, while DN adds a 200kt corvette and moves the frigate to 250. We only need 1 extra size here, either between ES and FG or between FG and DS. Corvette
DN and UM add a ship between DS and LC. DestroyerHeavy
DN and UM add a Heavy Cruiser ship between CR and BC. CruiserHeavy
DN and UM add a ship between DN and baseship. DreadnoughtHeavy
Baseships deserve their own picture. Baseship
DN super monitors are bigger than baseships, but not even close to battlemoons. Probably they should re-use the monitor/baseship picture not being worth of a new one. BaseshipHeavy?
BattleMoons and Death Stars far above the rest. WorldShipSmall - WorldShipMedium - WorldShipLarge

(UM- Malfadorian)
Galley - Escort - 650 - UM
Trireme - Cruiser - 1300 - UM
Juggernaught - Battleship - 1950 - UM
Magnus Prime - Dreadnought - 2600 - UM

UM adds this ship sizes to players with a specific racial advantage.
I don't know enough about this mod. Maybe they can use pictures to show better their real size, or maybe they are meant to look small (the galley is bigger than a battlecruiser, but looks like an escort).

Special Abilities
Observer - Escort - 130 (built in cloak) - UM
Science Ship - Destroyer - 375 (built in sensors/scanners) - UM
Stellar Manipulator Barge - TransportLarge - 2010 - DN

I'm not sure if these sizes need new pictures or can re-use the ones above.

Prospector - TransportSmall - 200 - DN
Mining Base - TransportLarge - 500 - DN

These ones are nice, maybe a ResourceShipSmall and ResourceShipLarge.

Scenario Resource Ship - Destroyer - 3000 - P&N

Not sure of what is this. It seems to be used only in scenario editing making and not normally available for players. A picture wouldn't be necessary.

Carriers:
Escort Carrier - CarrierLight - 500 - DN/UM(Converted Carrier-TransportMedium-400)
Light Carrier - CarrierLight - 800 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Carrier - Carrier - 1000 - None/DN(Fleet Carrier)/P&N/UM/SW
Heavy Carrier - CarrierHeavy - 1200 - None/DN(1300-Assault Carrier)/P&N/UM(Large Carrier)/SW
Heavy Carrier - CarrierHeavy - 1400 - UM

DN and UM add a 400-500 carrier smaller than light carrier CarrierTiny
UM adds another carrier bigger than normal heavy carrier. CarrierMassive

Bases
Space Station - SpaceStation - 500 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Battle Station - BattleStation - 1500 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Outpost - BattleStation - 2000 - UM
Starbase - Starbase - 2500 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW

Only new base is UM outpost. Do we need a new pic? BaseOutpost

Colony Ships
Colony Ship - ColonyShip - 300 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Ark Ship - ColonyShip - 500 - DN/UM(Colonization Liner)

Dn and UM add a ColonyShipLarge
Note that although a colony ship is the same sze of destroyer, most pictures look as big as a cruiser or battlecruiser.

Transports
Fast Courier - TransportSmall - 210 - DN
Small Transport - TransportSmall - 300 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Transport - TransportMedium - 600 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Large Transport - TransportLarge - 900 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Small Freighter - TransportSmall - 320 (faster) - UM
Medium Freighter - TransportMedium - 620 (faster) - UM
Large Freighter - TransportLarge - 920 (faster) - UM

DN adds a small fast courier. TransportTiny
UM adds a second set of 3 transports, faster and slightly bigger than the first one. they shouldn't need new pics.

Fighters
Small Fighter - FighterSmall - 15 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Fighter - FighterMedium - 20 - None/DN(Interceptor)/P&N/UM/SW
Large Fighter - FighterLarge - 25 - None/DN(Assault Fighter)/P&N/UM/SW
Huge Fighter - FighterLarge - 40 - DN(35kt-Fighter-Bomber)/UM
Heavy Assault Bomber - FighterLarge - 50 - DN/UM(60kt-Skirmisher)

DN and UM add two fighters above large fighter. FighterHuge - FighterMassive

(P&N-Nomads)
Medium Fighter - FighterSmall - 20 - P&N
Large Fighter - FighterSmall - 25 - P&N
Heavy Fighter - FighterMedium - 35 - P&N
Massive Fighter - FighterLarge - 50 - P&N

P&N nomads have a set of 4 fighters, they could use one of the extra fighters above. The think big racial trait adds variations, but they shouldn't need new pics.

(TIEs)
TIE Fighter - FighterSmall - 7 - SW
TIE Bomber - FighterLarge - 11 - SW
TIE Advanced - FighterMedium - 14 - SW

And TIEs in SW use normal fighter pics.

Satellites
Small Satellite - Satellite - 80 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Satellite - Satellite - 100 - None/DN /P&N/UM/SW
Large Satellite - Satellite - 120 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW

There are no new sats, exept for the P&N think big in (100-125-150)

Mines
Small Mine - Mine - 10 - None/DN(5)/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Mine - Mine - 15 - None/DN(10)/P&N/UM/SW
Large Mine - Mine - 20 - None/DN(15)/P&N/UM/SW

DN reduces the size of mines, and only new mines are the P&N think big (12-18-25)

Troops
Light Infantry - Infantry - 1 - SW/P&N(Drop Pod)
Heavy Infantry - Infantry - 2 - SW
Small Troop - TroopSmall - 10 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Troop - TroopMedium - 15 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Large Troop - TroopLarge - 20 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Huge Troop - TroopLarge - 40 - UM

SW and P&N add an InfantryTroop
UM adds a TroopHuge
Think P&N- Think Big also adds bigger variations without needing new pics.

Weapon Platforms
Small Weapons Platform - WeapPlatformSmall - 200 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Weapons Platform - WeapPlatformMedium - 400 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Large Weapons Platform - WeapPlatformLarge - 600 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW

Nothing new here exept for the P&N think big (250-500-750)

[geoschmo]

20 neo-shippics makes for an extra 20 MB for the install. Zipped up for download that would add 6MB to the mod size. For Devnull that quadruples the size for the download.

I know the plan is to have a batch file pic converter or something. I guess I am just concerned that we are asking for trouble with players that just want the mod and aren't worried about the new shipsets. They might not take the time to run the utility. This would cause errors, no?

If I include the new images in the generic folder in the download, I guess that will work. That would only add about 230 k to the zip file. That way if they don't run the utility for some reason it will just pull the generic Version of the images and they won't get an error.

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

I'm probably going to drop the stellar manipulation barge from the Devnull mod. It was designed with the idea that Malfador would add the ability for engines to bases at some point. I don't think that is going to happen. Or I may keep it and change it to a ship hull instead of a base hull. I haven't decided. The way it is now it serves no purpose.

There are a few ship sizes in Devnull that are unique and very close to standard hull types, Heavy Cruiser etc., maybe they shouldn't be added to the standard. In those cases I could just continue using the default shippics. If we add shippics to the standard for every unique shippic in every mod, the standard is going to get humungous IMHO.

Tha being said if yuo can find some overlap or something that would work, I am mroe than willing to change those shippic names to match a standard.

Geoschmo

[Suicide Junkie]

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20 neo-shippics makes for an extra 20 MB for the install. Zipped up for download that would add 6MB to the mod size. For Devnull that quadruples the size for the download.

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How many races are you including with your mod?

Each installed shipset will be increased by 1MB, almost exactly. (1.035 MB).
I know that pictures are horrendous downloads. Even one shipset is roughly the same size as my P&N mod.

You definitely need to separate the mod+generic and the addon shipsets.
Especially since these shipsets will work under any mod, and you don't want to download the same thing three or four times, once with each mod.

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BaseOutpost - BattleStation - Base between battestation and starbase

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How about:
Warstation (space S., battle S., war S., starbase)
or SpaceFortress (Space St. -> SpaceFortress, Battle St. -> Starbase)

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BaseshipHeavy? - Baseship/Starbase - bigger than baseship, not sure about this.

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Logical name, I'd go for it.

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Observer - Escort - 130 (built in cloak) - UM

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I would have made use of the Drone image for this .

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Not sure of what is this. It seems to be used only in scenario editing making and not normally available for players. A picture wouldn't be necessary.

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Yep.

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ShipPic - Alternative pic (copy source) - simple description.

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Note that it is very easy to have multiple, prioritzed sources.
So the program could first look for a worldshipsmall, then massivebaseship, then worldship medium, then worldship large before giving up and using the generic image.

[Andr�s]

A little over 1 mb more for each shipset, that means that if I wanted to upgrade every shipset I have installed (131) I would run out of disk space.

IIRC Devnull mod includes the 20 original races, only AI and no pics. S_J your program should be able to copy from the base race directory when called from inside a mod.

I agree 6 mb extra would make a mod too big, particularly if they are just repeated pictures.
Maybe I�m exaggerating, and not the 20 sizes I mentioned are necessary, they could be reduced to 12-15, without leaving out any important pic. But it would still be a lot of space.

Think they wouldn�t mind if extra pictures were actually new pictures, in fact they would be glad to have different sizes looking different.
That�s why we were thinking about a copying utility, and why Dogscoff suggested different distributing methods. I don�t think there will be a problem with people not running the copying utility. Many people will try to run the mod without running it before, I agree. But after they see an error will check in the readme that they need to run the utility.

[geoschmo]

Ok, I have a suggestion.

I can leave the mod the way it is, and include in the mod data dirctory a file called NeoVehicleSize.txt. This file will be identical to the regular mod VehicleSize file, but using the NeoStandard shippic names instead. Then we write the utility to copy all the bitmaps and copy the Neo file over the regular mod VehicleSize file.

For those people that want the neostandard for custom shipsets, it would be no extra work. This way the mod download size remains small, and people that aren't concerned with the custom shipsets don't have to hassle with it. Coming from a support background, I can tell you no matter how good your program is, someone is going to have a problem with it.

What do you guys think? This would remove my Last remaining reservations about what I think is a great idea overall.

One other thing. The utility will be writing the over the pic files in the mod directories, not the default SEIV directory right? Even though the pics are new pics and not overwriting exsisting files, we shouldn't be messing with peoples default directories.

Geoschmo

[Andr�s]

I like it alternative vehicle size files using standad and neo-standard pic sets. Maybe we can release a little file with sample shipsets and vehiclesizes files for different mods.

Maybe this will complicate the program too much, but could it look into the VehicleSizes.txt and only copy pictures that are referenced there?

quote:

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quote:
BaseshipHeavy? - Baseship/Starbase - bigger than baseship, not sure about this.

Logical name, I'd go for it.

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Question here was do we need another picture for this? Or Super Monitors should use baseship pictures just like the normal Monitor?

[This message has been edited by Andr�s Lescano (edited 20 November 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

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I can leave the mod the way it is, and include in the mod data dirctory a file called NeoVehicleSize.txt. This file will be identical to the regular mod VehicleSize file, but using the NeoStandard shippic names instead. Then we write the utility to copy all the bitmaps and copy the Neo file over the regular mod VehicleSize file.

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Excellent Idea. The Last line of the utility can copy the vehiclesize to a backup, then write over it with NSVS.txt.

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One other thing. The utility will be writing the over the pic files in the mod directories, not the default SEIV directory right? Even though the pics are new pics and not overwriting exsisting files, we shouldn't be messing with peoples default directories.

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The utility will never overwrite an existing file, except maybe the vehiclesize.txt as above.

If that's not enough, run it from the mod folder, and I'll have it look into the .\pictures\races folder and upgrade all the races it finds.

Now there is still the question of space. If we drag copies of all the races in the default directory out into mod folders, we'll have Andr�s problem multiplied by the number of mods

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A little over 1 mb more for each shipset, that means that if I wanted to upgrade every shipset I have installed (131) I would run out of disk space.

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Maybe this will complicate the program too much, but could it look into the VehicleSizes.txt and only copy pictures that are referenced there?

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Better yet (and simpler, too), I could just read from a mod-specific .INI file (a subset of our full .INI, leaving out some image definitions). The modder could specify which of the standard's images are required, and also which images to take as secondary choices.
This might weaken the standard a bit, since modders could define their own set of required images, but shipsets would be coming out with standard images, and it would be a bit of work to alter on your own. (Deleting sections that don't apply to your mod is easy, but adding a few new ones takes more time)

Decision time.

[dogscoff]

Wow... looks like you guys sorted it all out while I was asleep. Nice one=-) Not much to add, since I agree with just about everything suggested since I Last posted. A few things though:

A>Configuration:
I've studied Andres' list and I am in almost complete agreement. Here is the list I think we should use.
1>Scout: Although it's not in any of the discussed mods, it seems popular (Already mentioned on this thread) and could be used for the UM Observer.
2>Corvette
3>DestroyerHeavy
4>CruiserHeavy
5>Dreadnought
6>Baseship
7>BaseshipHeavy: Andres had this question marked. I think there is plenty of space between base ship and worldship. As well as Devnullmod, ZeroAdunn's mod uses a ship of this type.
8>WorldShipSmall
9>WorldShipMedium
10>WorldShipLarge
11>ResourceShip: See number 12 for reason behind name change.
12>ResourceStation: I think in Devnullmod this is actually a station rather than a ship, so I propose this name rather than ResourceShipLarge. Also, we have to consider mods other than the ones discussed here (Including future mods). They may well prefer to have their mining hulls as stations rather than ships.
13>CarrierTiny
14>CarrierMassive
15>BaseOutpost
16>ColonyShipLarge
17>TransportTiny
18>FighterHuge
19>FighterMassive
20>TroopInfantry: I think we should call it either TroopInfantry (For alphabetical reasons) or just Infantry (Most acurate description), rather than InfantryTroop as in Andres' post.
21>TroopHuge
22>StellarManipBarge: Andres had a question mark over this one. I think it should go in.

This 22-ship configuration will cover all the discussed mods nicely, and leave plenty of scope for other mods.

B>Although most race-specific Neo pics will be generated by the program and therefore identical to standard pics (ie Phong_FighterHuge will be a copy of Phong_FighterLarge) I am assuming that we will create a full set of Neo Generics, for those who don't run the program. I think we should definitely throw in that Jraenar pic and a few others at random as a sort of "bonus"=-)

C>Where should the NeoMaker utility put all of the extra files? I can appreciate the argument to leave default directories alone, but duplicating images into however many mod dirs is crazy.
How about putting them in the default directories but have an uninstall option?

D>I love the name neostandard, but wasn't there a guy on the forum called Neo? Or am I imagining him? Don't think I've heard from him in a while.

E>Distribution: So as I understand it the Neo-Standard will consist of a program (with supporting text & ini files) and maybe a few dozen pictures. That would make it what... half a meg when zipped? Should we put it in with each mod or distribute seperately, with each mod carrying just a neovehiclesize.txt or what?

F>Program: S_J - you could incorporate your piratepatcher program into it - have it do 2 jobs at once.

G>Pixelling: The Vikings would require another 12 images for the 22 ship configuration listed above. If we can agree a final configuration I'll get started on making the Vikings the first fully Neo-Standard compliant shipset as an example to everyone else=-) Then I'll need to talk nicely to Rollo about AIs for all these Neo compliant mods=-) I would have to share my time between that and work on the neo generics. Shouldn't be a problem.

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SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 20 November 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

F>
Well, I'll have to rewrite the patcher, since I lost the souce code months ago.

C>
It would not be a problem to add a text file listing all of the images the program added. It would then be simple to remove them.

E>
Sounds reasonable. We might want to compile a bunch of NVS.TXTs for each of the mods around here, as a starting point for modders, and a very simple update for gamers.