Superhuman crews and Uber ATGM teams

[hveldenz]

Do other people experience superhuman crews and atgm teams that can kill or disable M1A1-HAs like a hot knife thru butter. I have had a suprisingly high number of M1A1s hurt by pinned one man tank crews (with grenades) or even killed by pinned 1 man matyluka or shmel teams with their built in RPG-7. They seem to do better than pinned infantry squads.

Are crews that have left a brewed up tank that high a morale and experience to pass the morale check to rally, the morale check to attack, and then hit and then get an effect? Shoud they not be avoiding MBTs in the interst of survival?

Comments from the play testers? Sorry, I do not know how I would save a game to show this this aspect and timing of play.

[Stirling]

Personally, I would remove crews from the game entirely if I could. I always end up removing all weapons from crews and all secondary weapons from teams.

[Mobhack]

hveldenz said:
Do other people experience superhuman crews and atgm teams that can kill or disable M1A1-HAs like a hot knife thru butter. I have had a suprisingly high number of M1A1s hurt by pinned one man tank crews (with grenades) or even killed by pinned 1 man matyluka or shmel teams with their built in RPG-7. They seem to do better than pinned infantry squads.

Are crews that have left a brewed up tank that high a morale and experience to pass the morale check to rally, the morale check to attack, and then hit and then get an effect? Shoud they not be avoiding MBTs in the interst of survival?

Comments from the play testers? Sorry, I do not know how I would save a game to show this this aspect and timing of play.

Just because they are pinned, does not mean they are harmless to drive by. A depleted section will be able to get a shot from all it's weapons on shot opportunity No. 1 of a turn if reasonably low supression, even if pinned. And everyone gets lucky, now and then.

It's best to deal with even small remnants, to ensure they are retreating or worse before trundling up to them and saying "Hi there" !

If they do manage an assault, that can be on the top (or other weakest) armour- that is especially bad for open topped AFV. Grenades can break tracks on any AFV, and they can be lobbed into an open topped AFV.

Use your accompanying infantry to eradicate them before moving the tanks next door to such, as they are a minor threat, and the more often you try that on such, the more chances they will have to get lucky.

Killing them is good in any case
- It reduces your firer's suppression slightly
- It adds a kill marker, so in campaigns you get a better chance at experience uplift
- It adds to the chance of the enemy force breaking
- When killed, enemy units nearby will test morale for a killed friend


Cheers
Andy

[hveldenz]

I appreciate that slightly pinned elements still have function, but I guess I do not understand how one man (when viewed with unit info) crews and atgm teams can unload their ak47s, grenades, and rpg-7s all at once. I would think they would be hard pressed to close with a 30-60 ton MBT that can be a threat. A lucky shot I understand, and even a 3 man remaining inf. squad I can see - 3 men to fire three weapons. I also understand how grenades can blow treads and open afvs.

Again - In some of my games, these one man death squads seem to to have super human rally, morale, experience and have a high rate of success. This ranks up there with 70 percent rated troops not reducing suppression (from 4 to 2) up to 11 or 12 times in a row when I did a series of save/reload/rerally experiments, or the 69% hit shot that misses 8 or nine times in a row in similar testing.

As an aside, there does seem to be strange distribution (re: the low hit probability thread) of the 'dice rolls'

I am looking to fry the small crews/one man remnants just for the reasons stated. Sometimes one can miss the one man "Private Ryan's" as they can be hard to see in smoke, flames, in wooded/tree terrain and I get a little sloppy in search and destroy as a games gets on in turns.

Blame me for carelessness for loosing 3 M1A1-HA+s to one man remnants (like one game - arrrrg), but it just does not seem right or 'real' from a simulation point of view - I am not aware of a lost M1 in Iraq to single men in either desert storm or Iraqi Freedom

Comments from any Military tankers on the forum?

Thanks for the feedback

[Listy]

hveldenz said:
I am not aware of a lost M1 in Iraq to single men in either desert storm or Iraqi Freedom

you only need one person to fire a weapon, or do RPG's require two people?

[Mobhack]

It's best to think of infantry sections casualties as "hit points" - as casualty<>dead.

A 1 man section therefore may be assumed have a couple of hangers-on (wounded, shocked, or hiding) nearby who may well be able to help the one fully functional person load the LMG or RPG.

It's a game anomaly - otherwise weapons furter down the slot list (and therefore of lower oriority) would at some point never be available for the depleted section to utilise. So - the above is my rationale for that .

So a 1 man section WILL get 1 shot opportunity for all its slots for the first shot, until it fires, moves etc, when the normal priority rules will apply, usually leaving it with the slot 1 weapon, sometimes with rifle shots if slot 2 is a class 1 weapon.

Crews and depleted sections DO have a lowered percentage chance of failing to assault. AI Crews tend to rout from the vehicle for several turns, and often rout offmap especially if the originating unit or weapon system is destroyed. having AI crew stik around to try to dance with you is rare in my experience, so presumably those ones would have had better morale than average?.

Basically you just were unlucky to lose several tanks to crews, especially as you have TI sights and should be aware of them?. Unless they asault from ambush (the assaulting unit is unspotted). An assault attempt from hidden position has a better chance, so "tripping over" previously unspotted units is less good for the vehicle target than trundling up alongside a known enemy unit.

Cheers
Andy

[Marek_Tucan]

Given this situation, won't it be possible to make surrendering easier?
Now, AFAIK, you have to be at pointblank range, the unit has to be really suppressed and you have to have a lucky dice roll for the unit to surrender and not run away or disperse.
Dunno if its possible but I'd like to see surrendering more frequently, esp. for example in situations when the given subject (squad etc.) will be routed and will see lots of enemy units nearby.

[wulfir]

hveldenz said:
Do other people experience superhuman crews and atgm teams that can kill or disable M1A1-HAs like a hot knife thru butter.

ATGMs can be deadly but bailed out crews... I have to say not really. If there are no dangerous enemy units around I tend to target bailed out crews because they provide the enemy with one more set of eyes but not because they are dangerous to the AFVs - their poor reach generally makes them useless for fighting purposes.

[PlasmaKrab]

It is true that unattended crews that rally again enough to counterattack can be a pain if you are careless. The standard case is when you kill some AFV at the start of the battle, and once the dust is settled you rush your armour forward and blaze away at the survivors, coming close to have the best shots, and have one of your tanks throwing a track because some damn ragged and burned tanker has had a lucky grenade throw...

That's being careless. You can as well stumble upon someone unexpected hiding in a bush or something.

[scJazz]

This whole thread makes me wish for a new feature. The ability to push a "Finish Scenario" button. Basically switch all units to AI control with a highly conservative hold ground and do not advance kind of strategy.

The main problem I would say is at the end of a battle when we are all just waiting for the YOU WIN!!! icon.