Recruitable Unit Rebalance Version 7.51 Released.

[Boron]

PDF said:
Why are Ulm smiths so much worse than Vanheim's dwarves ?

25% Forgebonus !

[Saber Cherry]

FrankTrollman said:
BTW, if you really want a Soul Slay effect that only works once per battle, couldn't you just make an additional attack that had a very negative "#ratt" value? It could do zero damage and have an on-hit Soul Slay effect, and it would go off once per 50 turns or so, which means that he Valkyries would cough it up on the first round of combat and not afterwards.

-Frank

Yes, that would sort of work. Thanks for the idea... I might try it.

[quantum_mechani]

One change I cannot understand is upping the cost of serpent priests to 200. The theme is already regarded almost universally as weaker than base, why make it worse?

[Saber Cherry]

quantum_mechani said:
One change I cannot understand is upping the cost of serpent priests to 200. The theme is already regarded almost universally as weaker than base, why make it worse?

Ummm... I guess, when pricing some units from special themes, I did not pay any attention to the "known wisdom" of the power of theme. Serpent Cult Pythium would actually be very strong on many maps if it could be combined with Water Cult, yielding powerful, amphibious, poison-immune, high-MR sacreds able to kill Atlantians (with their poison weapons) and Illithids (with an Astral blessing for additional MR). Illithids tend to be unable to kill things with high regeneration, regardless of MR.

But that's all beside the point. The reason is just that I re-priced Serpent Priests at 200 when I went on a holy-priest-mage price-boosting spree, since that approximately reflects their value outside of the context of their theme's weakness. Compare to a 140g Druid at 2H, 2N. 60g for +1W, +1? seems quite reasonable... or, starting with an 80g High Priest, 120g for +2N +1W +1? seems like a great deal, considering that it's all sacred... or starting with a Witch Hunter (already a great bargain) at 150g, and adding +1H and +1? for 50g (and changing the magic paths) also seems like a great deal.

However, there's also the fact that low-level Water and Nature magic are almost entirely worthless in most cases, which neither I nor Illwinter had really considered when pricing mages.

I still think 200g is a fair price for the unit, when obseved in a vacuum. But as you point out, the theme is pretty weak (especially considering that it takes Pythium from the (arguably) strongest magic nation to the (possibly) weakest). Do you think that giving Serpent Priests (another random *or* a linked random *or* 3N *or* 4H *or* 2W), and raising the price to 220~230, would make SC Pythium competitive? What about giving Acolytes a sorcery random, or replacing their 1N with a sorcery random (so they become like sacred holy Vaetti Hags)? As it stands, their mages can do little except pray for their sacred hydras...

[quantum_mechani]

Saber Cherry said:

Ummm... I guess, when pricing some units from special themes, I did not pay any attention to the "known wisdom" of the power of theme. Serpent Cult Pythium would actually be very strong on many maps if it could be combined with Water Cult, yielding powerful, amphibious, poison-immune, high-MR sacreds able to kill Atlantians (with their poison weapons) and Illithids (with an Astral blessing for additional MR). Illithids tend to be unable to kill things with high regeneration, regardless of MR.

But that's all beside the point. The reason is just that I re-priced Serpent Priests at 200 when I went on a holy-priest-mage price-boosting spree, since that approximately reflects their value outside of the context of their theme's weakness. Compare to a 140g Druid at 2H, 2N. 60g for +1W, +1? seems quite reasonable... or, starting with an 80g High Priest, 120g for +2N +1W +1? seems like a great deal, considering that it's all sacred... or starting with a Witch Hunter (already a great bargain) at 150g, and adding +1H and +1? for 50g (and changing the magic paths) also seems like a great deal.

However, there's also the fact that low-level Water and Nature magic are almost entirely worthless in most cases, which neither I nor Illwinter had really considered when pricing mages.

I still think 200g is a fair price for the unit, when obseved in a vacuum. But as you point out, the theme is pretty weak (especially considering that it takes Pythium from the (arguably) strongest magic nation to the (possibly) weakest). Do you think that giving Serpent Priests (another random *or* a linked random *or* 3N *or* 4H *or* 2W), and raising the price to 220~230, would make SC Pythium competitive? What about giving Acolytes a sorcery random, or replacing their 1N with a sorcery random (so they become like sacred holy Vaetti Hags)? As it stands, their mages can do little except pray for their sacred hydras...

I would leave all as in the base game, except make the hydras cheaper (base theme hydras a bit too).

[Huzurdaddi]

SC: I think what you have done with Abysia's Salamanders is cool. The idea is right: make them useful. But the tripple buff of attack, length, and reduced cost seems a little much. They are *awesome* in combat.

They could use a little nerf. I like the attack and length mod. Perhaps an increase back to the old price or heck, even more than the old price.

[Saber Cherry]

Huzurdaddi said:
SC: I think what you have done with Abysia's Salamanders is cool. The idea is right: make them useful. But the tripple buff of attack, length, and reduced cost seems a little much. They are *awesome* in combat.

They could use a little nerf. I like the attack and length mod. Perhaps an increase back to the old price or heck, even more than the old price.

OK, thanks, I'll look into that. With only ~5 attacks per battle (at 20 encumbrance) and low survivability (low protection and defense) I wanted to err on the side of cheapness, but my intention wasn't to give Abysia a new supreme unit...

[Huzurdaddi]

I don't think I would call them a supreme unit. And the trick with them is to arrange it so they do not get hit. But my quote to soapy was when fighting HC "Run *****es! RUN! BUUUURN!" Which is exactly what happens the 2nd round after contact with the enemy.

[Huzurdaddi]

Please don't take my word for it, I could be smoking crack. Whip up a game with indeps at 9 and let it rip! I was using rich world settings and that does seem to make the problem considerably worse since you can recruit more of them more quickly.

Oh and I have a question wrt. the Jotun Herse. Why did you reduce it's cost? Did you think it was overcosted at 60 gold? They are fine units. Compare them to woodsmen ( both are sacred ). Similar units except that the Herse is wearing actual armor.

[Saber Cherry]

Huzurdaddi said:
Please don't take my word for it, I could be smoking crack.

I'll keep that in mind

Oh and I have a question wrt. the Jotun Herse. Why did you reduce its cost? Did you think it was overcosted at 60 gold? They are fine units. Compare them to woodsmen ( both are sacred ). Similar units except that the Herse is wearing actual armor.

I think they are highly overcosted for any purpose, other than weak unequipped (or maybe a lucky coin) Thugs when heavily blessed. Jotunheim has access to much better thugs (like Banes / Banelords). Even at 50g it is usually preferable for Jotunheim to let 30g indy human leaders do the leading.

Their stats are way lower than Woodsmen and they lack the useful abilities of Forest Survival and Stealth. In other words... anything that Herses can do, indy leaders or Woodsmen can usually do better.

Jotun Scout @ 50g
HP 32
STR 22
ATT 12
DEF 12
PREC 11

Jotun Herse @ 50g
HP 33
STR 21
ATT 11
DEF 10
PREC 10

Note that the Jotun Scout should 33-34 HP; the 32 is a mistake (as non-leader Woodsmen already have 33).