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Hunpecked said:
I didn't see the Icarans as neo-Nazis, but I wouldn't have minded if they were. After all, the Nazis were only the most famous of many historical (and contemporary) totalitarian regimes, and it would be ludicrous to pretend that such a society couldn't arise again in some fictional future. Philip K. Dick even based one of his novels ("The Man in the High Castle") on the premise that the Axis won World War II and conquered the globe; the book won a Hugo Award. So as far as I'm concerned, Starhawk's defense of his protagonists is unnecessary.
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Thanks for that, as I said I was growing increasingly concerned that other folks were getting similar responses that my pen pal's parents were when they told HER
to stop reading it because it was I beleive their exact words were 'pro-nazi garbage' lol.
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However, his essay on Icaran society does raise some interesting points. I'm sure Starhawk sees his Icarans as genuinely happier and better off than most citizens of 21st Century Terran democracies, yet to this cynical reader the images he invokes are reminiscent of Nazi or Stalinist propaganda films, or maybe the incessant telescreen indoctrination of "1984": smiling, excruciatingly healthy schoolchildren; happy, prosperous workers; mighty dams, soaring bridges, clean cities, amber waves of grain, and so on. I'm reminded of a smiling Hitler awkwardly patting a schoolgirl on the head, a smiling "Uncle Joe" Stalin smoking his pipe, or a smiling Saddam Hussein with an apprehensive little hostage boy.
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I'm glad your so observant
in truth as I said as a whole they are happier but look at why for one moment and you'll see that they are "happier" because they are from a history where there never was a United States or true democratic government because those few democracies that did form throughout history were far more like Lenin era Russia then they were true democracies.
Another reason they are "happier" is because they are raised to beleive they should be happy with the status quo from a very very young age, as were their parents and their parents before them going back six thousand years, that tends to cause a certain lack of questioning the government or status quo
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Above and beyond the "too good to be true" factor, I find it hard to reconcile the Icarans' apparent prosperity (and military might) with the low level of automation Starhawk mentions in another thread. Without the multiplier of automation, it's difficult for a worker to produce much more (and often less) than is needed for himself and his family. There may be full "employment", but it's at a subsistence level. A textile mill may put a thousand hand weavers out of business, but it also frees them to become doctors, teachers, soldiers, scientists, and other "unproductive" (in the material sense) professionals.
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Well I never said they were totally unautomated just only automated where required, to be honest this was also meant to make a point, sure "everyone has a job" but for those poor SOBs who either could not receive a proper education or just never chose to receive a proper education the only thing they have to look foward to in their lives as Icaran citizens is producing certain "non-essential" goods they are also employed in "trade specific" jobs.
Only certain portions of production are like this as well for example, the vast majority of these people end up as miners, colonial draftees, end up in the Army or StateSec being that they are obviously not smart enough to end up in the navy.
The "trade specific" jobs I spoke of are, weapons factories, shipyards, and various other areas where a small ammount of automation given their level of technology can go a long way.
Essentially Hunpecked the point I was trying to make is that even in a society like Icara which is millenia more advanced then us will still have people that are just not bright enough to be doctors or other technology oriented jobs, and in a society as advanced as Icara is at it's very baseline these people would have zero work oppurtunities in their life if these jobs were not left open for them.
Technology wise Icara is so radically advanced that a lot of their tech is so "base" in nature it's hard to tell what is technology and what is not, by which I mean what you might think is just a coffee table might also be a Holo-displayer or computer.
Even their clothes are technologically advanced with "enviroment resistant" fabrics, mini computers, even life support suites in the case of seriously ill people.
In a society like that someone who can't figure out how to work a computer is royally screwed unless there are job openings in factories, shipyards and construction fields, though I'll admit that these are also more tech based then what we'd think of today.
And as I stated they absolutely fear and distrust anything close to true AI so that also seriously limits the ammount of automation they are willing to allow.
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Finally, as illustrated by the section on crime and punishment ("...there are no lawyers for criminal cases as there is no real need for lawyers because the evidence is always correct..."), the Icaran government has no checks and balances on its power--yet the abuses of power prevalent in every other human totalitarian society are curiously absent. In other words, I just don't buy the whole "benevolent despot" thing. The idealized portrait of the Icaran rulers just adds to the whole "propaganda film" impression.
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Remember the nobility, they are all related in one way or another to the Praetor and if enough of them become outraged over something the Praetor can be executed just like anyone else, as my post "Crowning a Praetor" stated three Praetors in history had been executed for simply betraying their oath to church and empire, that's not including the few that were "disapeared" by outraged church and state officials because of their "unfortunate behavior" I.E Saddams and Stalins didn't live long enough to make a real impression on history.
Also early on in the story I stated that five NOBLES were hung by the Admiralty for sending millions of people out to colonize a world that was later destroyed because the military had said they could not protect it and the nobles disobayed and did it anyway.
Essentially the "checks and balances" we'd expect to see in say a US or UK are abscent yes but that's because when someone does something wrong they are usually eliminated from the equation with speed.
Remember as I said the Icaran government is SIX THOUSAND years old, they've had their bad periods and bad governments but they've survived because the very nature of Icaran life is to be "for the greater good" because of the fact that they were as I said once priests, poets and philosphers ONLY, though that was millenia ago and they are no longer like that some of those qualities did stick with them.
As a whole think of the Icaran empire like a massive machine wherein the Praetor is the Engine, the nobility is the arms and legs, and the average citizenry is the fuel, none can survive without the other and they keep each other in check in various some times bloody ways.
As far as justice goes, quite frankly the judges have nothing personal in it because if they are caught taking bribes they are executed, so when the evidence is presented they simply examine it and come to a decision, as I said the criminal is not always guilty and those found innocent are released without so much as a black mark on their record.
To be honest if you watched the actions of Praetor Leonidas throughout the story he wasn't exactly the best ruler, he led his people into wars that killed billions of people and are even now engulfing the entire known galaxy, which by the way is over 1,800 worlds!
It no fall on his son Rodrick to take the throne, and time will tell what kind of man he will prove to be.
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Of course this is Starhawk's story and he's welcome to build his background however he likes. In fact I applaud his efforts to construct a novel good/bad future civilization, and will continue to read the story despite the perceived inconsistencies. In my limited reading of science fiction, I often find the whiz-bang "science" more believable than the social aspects of a futuristic story; it's a rare author who can come up with a plausible, self-consistent social setting for his/her characters. Enjoying science fiction always requires a certain "suspension of disbelief"; it's just that I'm usually more willing to accept the contradictions in science than the inconsistencies in human behavior (I'm not a scientist, but I've been immersed in human behavior for several decades.)
So bring it on, I say! Warp points? Sure, no problem. I-lasers? OK, whatever. The accused is always guilty? Uh, wait a minute... 
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Well in the rawest sense of the word I've never found a government in any sci-fi book movie or show that even closely resembles the Icaran government unless you mix a few sci-fi governments.
As I said the main reason there seems to be an "absence of human nature" is because we are thinking of it along the lines of what our history tells us human nature is, they're history unfolded in a very different fashion wherein the very life of the Empire hinged on their leadership, for millenia, and if you remember Icara suffered not one but two absolutely devestating moments in their history, the first was the war that made them what they are today, and the second was the betrayal by the Independant nations back in Sol who launched massive attacks against Icara and drove them from the very cradle of mankind.
That would change a society in ways I don't think an of us can ever guess at, and I took a guess in that when humans are afraid for their very existance, we tend to bond together under a strong leader, and with all their failings Icara has had a long line of strong leaders who are very good at making sure their people survive.
Re: Semi-OT: Regards to my Game Story
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