Suicide Junkie: pls read, about b5 armor system

[Ragnarok-X]

Hey SJ,

i just spend a few hours with modding the B5 mod. While i was at it i finally took a quite intensive look at the armor system you invented and which was heavily defended by you and Fyron when i told you i wanted to abandon it.
Anyways, now that i finally understood the entire system and stuff, i have a questions. If you could be so kind to answer them, i would most appreciate it.

First, i guess the 3 armor components (Primary, Alternate and Additional) are just like the sensors and ecm in the mod, you can pack one of each which will increase the overall performance. It still stack, and increase effiency when used together. That part wasnt hard to figure out.
Unlike the ECM and Sensor system it will always be smart to use all 3 "layers" of the armor, since their cost is not that big at all, unlike ecm and sensor you dont have to decide if the costs are worth it.

I got that part right, did i ?

Now each armor "Layer" offers 5 different "technologies", Scattering, Refractive, Channeling, Conductive, Emmisive.
Different from stock, those names have actually no other difference than increased ability to decrease damage.

Obviously thats pretty strange, i think the names cant be left the way they are, because they confused me quite a lot, and i guess/know players of the mod agree.

Anyways, im still right with my thoughts, am i ?


Ok, now lets go even further. Each TYPE of armor (scattering - emmisive) offers 6 levels to research, which will ONLY decrease the cost of the component.
Since the cost goes down 10 points per level, what is actually the point in research and developing "better" armor of one "name" ?

Obviously it is FAR smarter to just research the next "TYPE" of armor, i.e. skip levels 2-6 from scattering armor and research refractive armor.

Now i havent fiddled with the techtree too much, so it could be possible that one is actually forced to fully develop scattering armor to even get access to refractive armor, in that point, my above question/thought is wrong.

At ANY rate, its still to confusing.
Im willing to go with your armor system in the basics, but it needs to be simplified. I.E. no more different "TYPES" of armor for one layer which actually give no benefit except better abilites.
All armors of one LAYER need to have the same name, for example "Emisive Armor I-X (Primary)", Emisive Armor I-X (Secondary) and "Emisive Armor I-X (Additionally).
Or for another example, there will still be different names, but only 3, one for each layer. So the Primary Armors is all named "Emmisive", the secondary armor is named �Refractive� and the third layer is named "Conductive".

Well, thats basicly what this thread is about. I would like to hear your thoughts on this, as well as arguments. The armor system, as it is, cant be kept within further revision of the Babylon5 mod, not under -any- circumstances.
I will offer SJ the chance to "redo" his system for use with the mod, else i will rehaul it.
Lastly, i dont meant to offend anyone. Im glad im allowed to post on this forum and find the support i need/want.

In addition, and thats already clear, i already deleted a few armors. Midrange and Heavy armor, with 3kT and 7kT size respectivly have been deleted.
From now on, there will only be light armor, with 1kT size (in order to fill up empty space) and the 3 layers of damage-reducing armor. I actually saw no need for armors with 3kT and 7kT size, even if they provide better resistance and stuff.

Alright, now its time for you guys


btw. Engines, Vehiclesizes (ships) and Reactors have been completed

[Fyron]

Anyways, im still right with my thoughts, am i ?

No.

In addition, and thats already clear, i already deleted a few armors. Midrange and Heavy armor, with 3kT and 7kT size respectivly have been deleted.
From now on, there will only be light armor, with 1kT size (in order to fill up empty space) and the 3 layers of damage-reducing armor. I actually saw no need for armors with 3kT and 7kT size, even if they provide better resistance and stuff.

*cringes* Congratulations, you have just ruined the armor system. The heavier armors provide fewer overall hitpoints, but better protection because more shots will hit the armor components instead of internals (since the calculations that determine which component is hit are biased towards components with more hit points). There is most certainly a purpose to the heavy armor.

[LordAxel]

Have you considered making armor race specific something similiar to the star trek mod. As in B5 most races the armor wasnt the same would add more b5 feel.

[Suicide Junkie]

First, i guess the 3 armor components (Primary, Alternate and Additional) are just like the sensors and ecm in the mod, you can pack one of each which will increase the overall performance. It still stack, and increase effiency when used together. That part wasnt hard to figure out.
Unlike the ECM and Sensor system it will always be smart to use all 3 "layers" of the armor, since their cost is not that big at all, unlike ecm and sensor you dont have to decide if the costs are worth it.
- Sort of, but not really.

The primary is big, powerful, and one-per-ship.
The secondary lets you add a piece of weaker, stacking ability. (one-per-ship again)
The Additional replaces the secondary. It is exactly the same, except there is no limit on the number you can add.

---

Now each armor "Layer" offers 5 different "technologies", Scattering, Refractive, Channeling, Conductive, Emmisive.
Different from stock, those names have actually no other difference than increased ability to decrease damage.
- Yes.

Obviously thats pretty strange, i think the names cant be left the way they are, because they confused me quite a lot, and i guess/know players of the mod agree.
- They were named as such in order to give them a B5 flavour.
The name really isn't important to me, although IMO it does sound good.

Ok, now lets go even further. Each TYPE of armor (scattering - emmisive) offers 6 levels to research, which will ONLY decrease the cost of the component.
Since the cost goes down 10 points per level, what is actually the point in research and developing "better" armor of one "name" ?

Obviously it is FAR smarter to just research the next "TYPE" of armor, i.e. skip levels 2-6 from scattering armor and research refractive armor.
- Going up a level in the ability direction is VERY expensive, though. The price tech and HP tech are much cheaper to research.
The thing to do is go up in ability as much as you can afford, then squeeze the other two techs in between your weapon/other research.

Now i havent fiddled with the techtree too much, so it could be possible that one is actually forced to fully develop scattering armor to even get access to refractive armor, in that point, my above question/thought is wrong.
- Nope. Just the cost. Which rises exponentially with tech level, or so.

At ANY rate, its still to confusing.
Im willing to go with your armor system in the basics, but it needs to be simplified. I.E. no more different "TYPES" of armor for one layer which actually give no benefit except better abilites.
All armors of one LAYER need to have the same name, for example "Emisive Armor I-X (Primary)", Emisive Armor I-X (Secondary) and "Emisive Armor I-X (Additionally).
Or for another example, there will still be different names, but only 3, one for each layer. So the Primary Armors is all named "Emmisive", the secondary armor is named �Refractive� and the third layer is named "Conductive".
- That dosen't make any sense, really. Those three things don't work together.
If you look at the component portraits, you should see what I was getting at.
The Primary is the big toughie in the middle.
The secondary/additional is the add-on pieces which provide some fringe support to the primary.

In addition, and thats already clear, i already deleted a few armors. Midrange and Heavy armor, with 3kT and 7kT size respectivly have been deleted.
From now on, there will only be light armor, with 1kT size (in order to fill up empty space) and the 3 layers of damage-reducing armor. I actually saw no need for armors with 3kT and 7kT size, even if they provide better resistance and stuff.
- As fyron said, boo - hiss.
Toss out the structural supports, no prob. They never got seriously used in the PBW game.
But, sheesh, man. Light and Heavy armor are key. Midrange is a nice alternative to mixing grades. Not so much against the ancients, with their insta-death weapons, but absolutely critical against the young races.

Light armor only will also mean the shadow battlecrabs get crippled by the E.A. way too easy.

---

Look:

Light armor: bulk. Absolutely nessesary in big fleet combat.
Midrange: Happy medium option.
Heavy armor: protection. Nessesary for small to medium fleets and ships loaded with advanced armor.

Advanced armor: High tech addons to reduce incoming damage. 3D grid tech.
dimension 1) increase ability amount (mega pricey)
dimension 2) increase hp (real cheap)
dimension 3) decrease cost (real cheap)

Its not that hard, dangit!

From now on, there will only be light armor, with 1kT size (in order to fill up empty space)

And armor is NOT the ignorable "fill-in-the-empty-space" crap it is in stock. There are no magic shields; this is THE protection mechanism for ships.
You NEED to put a healthy pile on your ships for optimum effectiveness.
If you don't have hitpoints, you're gonna get your *** handed to you. If you don't have the proper amount of heavy armor, you're going to be breathing vaccuum through the sieve that was your hull before your ship is even half-destroyed.

[Timstone]

Oh dear RagsX, you managed to anger "them" again... hahaha LOL!!!

[Fyron]

Hopefully Ragnarok-X (and you Timstone) will finally realize he is wrong about the armor and leave it alone...

[Timstone]

Hehehe....

*wissles a innocent tune while walikng away towards his timetraveling gearbox*

I must admit you guys (You, SJ and other supporters) have some good points. Maybe the armor system improves when the descriptions are modified and just maybe the names too. But you guys have convinced me of the use of this armor system. But I'll keep myself in the background and see what you guys are going to do. I'm going to focus on other stuff.

[Ragnarok-X]

Oh well. Actually the point is that im participating in the Last and only babylon 5 pbw game, which is played by 7 players. I have yet to see a ship using the armor system either to effect or in a way described by SJ and Fyron. People simply do not REALIZE how it should work, even if i see your point.
Right now all ships i have seen just use 1kT component to fill the ships space (i.e. you have 8kT space left, so you pack 8x1kT armors), 3kT and 7kT are not used at all.
In addition people pack one "main" armor each of damage-reducing armor, thats about it.


About your
"Light armor only will also mean the shadow battlecrabs get crippled by the E.A. way too easy. "
Well, simple as it is, Shadows and first ones in general will of course get special armors which have a high damage-reduction-ability.
Since all of the armors dont have the "armor" ability, they will not destroyed first. Due to the massive size-resistance relation, they will most probably be destroyed at Last. Since they will Last that long, the damage reduction will be provided until the end, so even more damage resistance through light/normal/heavy armor is not even needed, it will already take quite long to just destroy one ship, given average armor vs average weapon, where the damage decreasement will be about 25% (or whatever).


I would so like to hear more opinions on this, apart from SJ, Fyron, Timstone and me. People who actually played the mod.

[XenoTheMorph]

Well from what I can tell with all this verbal going on
and my crude knowlege of the similar but simpler Adamant armour -

If you use mostly 1kt (smaller) armour:

Your ships will take More hits before being destroyed BUT they will also take More internal non-armour damage early (i.e. bridges, sensors, & weapons will be much more likely to be destroyed early in combat)

If you use mostly 7kt? (larger) armour (10kt in Adamant, more intuitive since we use base 10 numbers ):

Your ships will take Less hits before being destroyed BUT they will also take Less internal non-armour damage early (i.e. bridges, sensors, & weapons will be stay functional untill later in the combat)


I hope I got that right and it was understandable!

[Fyron]

Ragnarok-X said:
Oh well. Actually the point is that im participating in the Last and only babylon 5 pbw game, which is played by 7 players. I have yet to see a ship using the armor system either to effect or in a way described by SJ and Fyron. People simply do not REALIZE how it should work, even if i see your point.
Right now all ships i have seen just use 1kT component to fill the ships space (i.e. you have 8kT space left, so you pack 8x1kT armors), 3kT and 7kT are not used at all.
In addition people pack one "main" armor each of damage-reducing armor, thats about it.

Just because people are horribly misusing it doesn't mean the armor system is flawed. It just needs better explanation...