Good game, but....the AI is very bad.

proteus · #1 May 8th, 2004, 07:44 PM

I like this game. I usually play single, thus I have some major problems with the AI.

1. The AI is massing weak troops. Why? I see hella lot of light infantry and cheap troops. Pointless, they are toast.
2. The AI is making weird strategic decisions. It is moving around with strong commanders without a point, and without a decent army.
3. The AI is not equipping its heroes properly, sometimes not at all.
4. The AI is not protecting its heroes/commanders.
5. The AI isnt using the mid/late game spells very well.
6. The AI wont summon too many "heavyweight monsters". -> I wonder what the heck the AI is doing with its magic income.
7. The AI's battlefield tactics is kinda laughable as well.
8. The AI isnt building forts, just very rarely. Maybe this is causing our next problem, that the AI is making LI mostly?

I patched the game to 2.11 of course, before you ask.
I dont wanna be rude, but all of these should be fixed with the next patch.

P.

[ May 09, 2004, 12:48: Message edited by: proteus ]

Leif_- · #2 May 8th, 2004, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by proteus:
I dont wanna be rude, but all of these should be fixed with the next patch.

You probably shouldn't hold your breath. AI is a notoriously difficult area, and the nature of Dominions makes it a very difficult game to write an AI for (basically, it's got a very large amount of different inter-releated factors which make for a much larger search-space than most comparable games.)

You might see incremental improvements to the AI, but you're not going to see the AI "fixed" in a patch. The issue is simply so complicated that to do make any huge improvements would likely take far too much work to be worthwhile.

I suggest you try a few multiplayer games instead. The human mind might not be the best computer that can be made, but it's the only one we can build with unskilled labour.

proteus · #3 May 8th, 2004, 08:21 PM

Yes I do play multi, but you know, it takes too much time to play multi games in these type of games.
[Especially in this, in mid or late game]

I think that it is not impossible to script a good AI, in fact I am sure that all of these mentioned weaknesses can be fixed...and hopefully they will be.

P.

Leif_- · #4 May 8th, 2004, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by proteus:
Yes I do play multi, but you know, it takes too much time to play multi games in these type of games.
[Especially in this, in mid or late game]

I think that it is not impossible to script a good AI, in fact I am sure that all of these mentioned weaknesses can be fixed...and hopefully they will be.

P.

Of course they can be fixed, it's just going cost more than it's worth. Basically, what you'd end up with is a huge expert system, probably near the size of the game itself.

proteus · #5 May 8th, 2004, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Leif_-:
Of course they can be fixed, it's just going cost more than it's worth.

I dont agree. Huge amount of players are only playing singleplayer games. They should get the best what is possible for their money.
This game costs a lot of money, like the top seller high-end games. This is why the devs should focus on this, since this is the weak part of the game right now.

P.

Leif_- · #6 May 8th, 2004, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by proteus:
I dont agree. Huge amount of players are only playing singleplayer games. They should get the best what is possible for their money.
This game costs a lot of money, like the top seller high-end games. This is why the devs should focus on this, since this is the weak part of the game right now.

P.

I think you severely underestimate the effort and work that goes into making a good AI - particularly for something as complex as Dominions. Besides, the AI in Dominion isn't really any worse than the average for strategic games (in my opinion it's surprisingly good, considering Illwinter's position). Let's face it - even for games that are created by the big hitters, the AIs are generally weak.

proteus · #7 May 8th, 2004, 08:48 PM

Yes you are right in some points, there are a few games with a decent AI, most of them are weak.
However I dont think that it is wise to bring up things like that. Just because the majority of the strategy games have a mediocre/weak AI, why should Doms II. have a weak AI as well?
The game costs 50, which is hella lot in the gaming market, so the devs must work for their money. Lot of months have passed now since the game release, and the AI is still bad.
We had patches they were good and nice, but this problem is not solved still. I almost see no changes in the AI. Not good.....not good.

I guess you all understand my point.
As I said I play multi as well, but I like the singleplayer too, however the quality of this AI rendering the SP part...er..not so fun.
I really hope that the devs will do something about this, because time is passing, and nothing happened yet.

[ May 08, 2004, 19:52: Message edited by: proteus ]

MStavros · #8 May 8th, 2004, 08:56 PM

Well..wow.wow.wow...
This was being discussed months ago, it was my topic!!

Look at here! ->
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;t=000191;p=20

Anyways I totally agree with proteus.

Leif_- · #9 May 8th, 2004, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by proteus:
Yes you are right in some points, there are a few games with a decent AI, most of them are weak.
However I dont think that it is wise to bring up things like that. Just because the majority of the strategy games have a mediocre/weak AI, why should Doms II. have a weak AI as well?

Because good AIs are very, very difficult to make. As an educated guess, I'd say that to make a good AI for Dominions 2, would require at least 80% of the effort that's already gone into making the whole game.

Quote:

The game costs 50, which is hella lot in the gaming market, so the devs must work for their money.

The game is also a niche product from a tiny, half hobby-driven development team. There are limits to how much you can expect from them.

Quote:

Lot of months have passed now since the game release, and the AI still bad.
We had patches they were good and nice, but this problem is not solved still. I almost see no changes in the AI. Not good.....not good.

As I said earlier, it's difficult to make a good AI, so you can't expect to see any huge changes to the AI done in patches. We're talking about several man-months worth of work here (at the very least), and remember that Illwinter is a part-time buisness.

[ May 08, 2004, 20:03: Message edited by: Leif_- ]

Gandalf Parker · #10 May 8th, 2004, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by proteus:

quote:
Originally posted by Leif_-:
Of course they can be fixed, it's just going cost more than it's worth.

I dont agree. Huge amount of players are only playing singleplayer games. They should get the best what is possible for their money.
This game costs a lot of money, like the top seller high-end games. This is why the devs should focus on this, since this is the weak part of the game right now.

Im real sorry if anyone feels they arent getting their money worth. I used to hear the same thing about Master of Magic because it wasnt multiplayer. Or GalCiv (the #1 AI game by the way) because it wasnt multi-platform. Now we have Illwinter's PBEM multiplayer game because the AI isnt good enough for decent solo play. Maybe the game description needs touched up.