Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive

[Endoperez]

If human-sized mage pretender dies and is recalled, he shouldn't lose one from his all paths. Maybe 1 point from three random paths, but not one from every one! And it could be even less, depending on how IW sees things.

This would take care of the biggest problem with rainbows: they wouldn't become useless after a single arrow. 40 priest-turns of preaching to get back something that is only barely better than 8 sages with different randoms? With big ones, even if he has no magic left he would still be useable as a supercombatant.

So little to no loss on losing your pretender? Better to kill them off than try to cure their afflictions?

Personally, I don't feel those fit the Category. Neither does Immortality, or anything of that nature.

Lowering costs and increasing starting Dominion are in my mind more applicable. Even giving all human pretenders not on a horse Stealthy would, to me, feel more at home. I would rather see a prevalance of non-human "SC" Pretenders, than lowering the costs so much that it's more cost effective and gem effective to use Rainbows.

Perhaps giving base casting abilities centered around their inital Path might be more limiting and less game changing. Or perhaps a Focus of Magic based on their initial magic. I don't know if it's codable, but certainly better than slapping Immortality on every one and making the end game even more ungodly unbearable for invading forces.

[SelfishGene]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Some of the Demigod chassis options are also very overpriced.

I can understand your perspective but im uncertain if some of the Titan chassis are underpowered or just being used improperly. Those with weak magic skills but decent dominion still have good hit points and strength. The Prince of Death has far better inherent protection but less than half the hitpoints and is undead, giving it another vulnerability. I see the 50 point Pretenders to be just average choices, when you want some magic and blessings but don't want to give up many points or choose a cheap, weak body. Although ill be honest none of these uninspired, underpowered Titans make me want to choose them over a Moloch or PoD, who can reach magic-9 much cheaper.

Rainbows aren't completely worthless. Reaping 20-30 gems a turn by turn twenty through natural sites, not globals or clams alone, infuses your economy with enormous potential and a trove whose value is hard to measure. Their high research more quickly reaches a desired spell or path, especially early.

But to fulfill their true potential as forgers and ritual casters, you really need a 3-path instead of a cheaper 2-path. At 2 even with forging you'll be hard pressed to get any path above 5. At 3 you'll have even more gems and an be even closer to the 'global cap'. But a true 3 costs virtually every point you're given, and a bloodless 3 only slightly better. Of course you can and should make compromises, increase and decrease paths and not rigidly stick to a uniform distribution.

But the question is: is a 3-Path Rainbow worth 492 points for what it does? Forfeiting an amazing 12 scale steps, four whole scales, for that privilege? Is that worth missing out on 3-Magic, 3-Order, 3-Growth, 3-Productivity?

You might think im leading up towards a resounding no, but im really not. But the base human chassis are generally insufficient. Some unique humanoids are generally better in every way; the Divine Emperor looks like another sucker, and without any hand slots to boot, but he has 2-Dom, 1 Astral and 4 misc. slots, making him an uber ritual caster. But others, like the Arch-Druid, have no meaningful advantage.

Were i to be asked for suggestions to improve them these would be my responses;


All Humanoid cost -25 (includes unique chassis).

Also each should have perhaps 2 or 3 additional magic paths, even the Crone. Something thematic and appropriate of course.

Consider -

Crone: 1 Astral, 1 Death, 1 Water
Great Sage: 1 Air, 1 Fire, 1 Water
Frost Father: 2 Water, 1 Air, 1 Earth
Enchantress: 2 Astral, 1 Fire, 1 Earth
Freak Lord: 1 Death, 1 Nature, 1 Blood

ect,...

This might be too much when you hit the blessing threshold around 4. Total savings should probably be around about 50-75 points.

[ May 02, 2004, 07:46: Message edited by: SelfishGene ]

[Cohen]

However the point all there we agree is that human pretenders are too weak compared to others.
And lowering their cost isn't sufficient to have a real gain.

However I believe Illwinter is already working on them, dunno how exactly however.

My main problem with using Rainbows is not just picking up a bunch of paths, but all of the associated costs with it, primarily Dominion.

If all you did was raise their Base Dominion from 1 to 2:

Lets say an Average Dominion is 5, the Lowest Possible usable Dominion is 3

4 Steps of Dominion = 70. Last step (from 4 to 5) = 28 Points

2 Steps of Dominion = 21. Last step (from 2 to 3) = 14 Points

I'd say 95% of the time I lean towards 5+ in Dominion in serious competition. Only certain nations will I not use a higher end Dominion.

While not impressive at Dominion 3, it becomes that way as you buy more Dominion.

If you wanted to give each Human Pretender another Path of magic I wouldn't mind, though not to the degree that Gene stated, not because they don't figure well, but because it just feels like too many paths for such a low costing pretender and they are essentially prebuilt 'rainbows'. Giving only one additional path would allow someone to try to use a blessing instead of instantly going to Rainbow.

[ May 02, 2004, 08:07: Message edited by: Zen ]

Originally posted by Cohen:
However the point all there we agree is that human pretenders are too weak compared to others.
And lowering their cost isn't sufficient to have a real gain.

Lowering the cost isn't sufficient to have a real gain? Why not? Having more points isn't a gain?

I believe the point is not that they are too weak compared to others, but that there is actually a very limited set of Pretenders that most competitive players choose from instead of being able to use the variety of Pretenders that exist. So it has nothing to do with 'weak' and everything to do with 'usability'.

[Cohen]

Well

Adding a Dominion Point:
7*X
X = current dominion reached - starting chassis dominion.

Adding a Level in Magic Path, except the new one.
8*X
X= current Magic Level reached - starting chassis Magic Level.

So on having an higher dominion, or some magic levels should make them a little more powerful.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Why not increase the magic paths of human pretenders? I could imagine that archmage learn the one trick or the other while being immortal. Lets say each experience point increases one of his magic paths.

[Vynd]

Well like everyone I agree that it is hard to find a reason to take one of the human Pretenders. (Although it took me awhile to figure that out.) Personally, I like the idea of making them better while also making them more unique. I mean right now they're basically all the same Pretender except for one piddling "special" ability that in many cases you'll hardly use. So I like the idea of giving them more/different paths to start with, or giving them more in the way of special abilities (like PDF has suggested except moreso).

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Vynd:
Well like everyone I agree that it is hard to find a reason to take one of the human Pretenders. (Although it took me awhile to figure that out.) Personally, I like the idea of making them better while also making them more unique. I mean right now they're basically all the same Pretender except for one piddling "special" ability that in many cases you'll hardly use. So I like the idea of giving them more/different paths to start with, or giving them more in the way of special abilities (like PDF has suggested except moreso).

By "Special" abilities that you'll hardly ever use, I guess the great druid's bonus to casting vinemen / ogres? Nice bonus in a sense, but using a pretender to summon vinemen is such an incredible waste that it's rarely going to be done.

Might be different if the druid started with Vine Men / Ogres as an intrinsic spell. Or if the bonus was in the form of a unique misc item, that could be handed off to another nature mage.