Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive

[SelfishGene]

Although not possessing the stamina for a lengthy debate right now, i'm absolutely certain humanoid pretenders are simply not cost effective.

Why does the Manticore and Nataraja, decent fighters with reasonable or good starting dominions, cost 0 points, when the Crone, with 6 hp and 6 str, 1 dominion and no magic, costs 25 points?

Human pretenders are investments in POTENTIAL. There is no way to make a decent humanoid pretender without fronting a huge number of points.

Just some examples

50 point Human chassis, 10/path, no magic;
Dom-4, All Magic Paths-2 : 300 points, w/1-Blood: 284
Dom-4, All Paths-3 : 492 points, w/1-Blood: 452
Dom-4, Paths-4 : 748

And other Pretenders in comparison:
Son of Neifel
Water-9, Earth-4, Dom-6 : 466 points

Earth Mother
Earth-4, Nature-4, Dom-6 : 213 points

Vampire Queen
Fire-2, Air-4, Water-2, Earth-2, Death-3, Blood-2, Dom-4 : 435 points

Golden Naga
All Paths 3, no blood, Dom-4 : 510 points

Between a no-blood 3 Naga and a n.b. 3 Rainbow, there is only a 70 point difference! And thats with the double path costs!

...........................

All Human Pretenders should cost -25 points. The Crone imo should be free. Adjust from there.

[ May 01, 2004, 04:00: Message edited by: SelfishGene ]

[Norfleet]

I tend to agree. Most human pretender chassis options are complete dullards for precisely this reason....the few good ones, such as the Skratti, got dropped in the patch.

Yet they *ALL* seem to be about 25-50ish...and there's simply no way that the Frost Father is in any way the equal of the Skratti.

Part of the reason for their lack of popularity could be that they ARE overpriced.

Some of the Demigod chassis options are also very overpriced. The Lord of the Gates is more or less insuperior to its counterpart, the Prince of Death, and is also possessed of the indomitable battle morale of the Moloch, to boot. Yet it costs 50 points. I think a more fair price for it would be 0 points. Lord of the Desert Sun and Father of Serpants both have similar problems....and at 125 points just for a chassis that's more or less useless as an SC, they cost way too much.

[Teraswaerto]

Overpriced pretenders, hmm, how about Lord of the Wild at 150? I can see why it's so expensive: stealth, maenads, recuperation, berserk (though this is not always an advantage) and all item slots. But even so, 150 seems too much, especially since it has only 2 dominion (most gigantic humanoids have 3).

[PDF]

Complaining that humans mages are overpriced is beating a dead horse IMHO, everyone agrees. And I feel it badly because I like to play RB, and the only cost-effective pretender I can have is the GK, a pretty limited choice ...

To make them a little more competitive they should be in the 0-20 range (maybe 30 if they have an useful power like Enchantress or Sage...) and start with Dominion 2 (that's a 24 point saving if you go for dominion 4, as is the "standard" with such pretender.
Overall reduction will be like 50 pts. Still not a match if you plan to have some paths at 4+, but standard RB (level 2/6 paths) will at least have a decent price.
Another idea could be to make them Immortal, so having them killed (and that's pretty easy with their stats )won't be such a game killer (the -1 in each path makes recalled RBs useless..). Let's pretend they master resurrection magic ...

[ May 01, 2004, 15:36: Message edited by: PDF ]

[Chris Byler]

First of all, I assume you're talking about the size-2 humanoids (crone etc.) and archmage on a horse, not the giant humanoids like Son of Niefel, Titans etc. (which I think are mostly fine, I wouldn't call the Father of Serpents or LotDS useless as SCs although they don't have the instant appeal of Vampire Queen; maybe you just mean you can't send them to take provinces alone because of their free troops, but one archer way in the back on fire (whatever) solves that problem).

Rainbow mages were greatly weakened by the new bless system: they're pretty much guaranteed to have no useful blessing or a very weak one, while something like a Cyclops or Titan gets a useful blessing practically free. Father of Serpents and Lord of the Desert Sun both start with two paths, one of them at 2, which makes a significant difference at higher levels, and they're physically strong so they can lead armies and cast on the battlefield without fear. (In fact the Father of Serpents causes fear in his enemies.)

They have no magic skills except what you buy for them (thus they effectively cost another 50 or so points above their base cost - you have to get a lot of paths to make them even semi-worthwhile), are physically weak and have weak dominion. Few have any useful special ability. 0-20 points seems fair (0 for crone, maybe 10 for ones that start with 1 in a path like frost father/master druid/etc, 20 for the ones with a path *and* a good special like enchantress) - although they might be a little weak even then.

Having all possible paths of magic isn't that useful anyway: you can still only use at most two paths at a time (and that's only if they have a cooperative spell), except when searching; and pretender searching is slow and inefficient. The only real advantages rainbow mages have are high pretender research and a wide selection of personal buffs in combat, but that isn't enough to offset more powerful battlefield magic with less fatigue, easier access to high level rituals/globals and a strong blessing, even without the increased physical might (and often dominion too!) of demigods, rocks, monsters and other pretenders.

Actually, I think the best solution would be for the archmage pretenders to pay a reduced cost to buy up magic paths. If they pay 10 for new paths *and* half price for buying up paths, then they could really be magical powerhouses, and be pretty effective even with a modest point investment. This counterbalances their physical weakness (which makes them glass cannons on the battlefield), weak dominion and even their current high base cost.

In fact, if different gods can pay different amounts to buy up magic paths, there's no reason that can't be applied to all pretenders: humaniod mages and most immobiles pay 50%, nagas, ghost king, liches and medusa pay 75%, demigods, virtue, moloch and PoD pay 100%, vampire queen, bulls and dragons pay 125%, wyrm and manticore pay 150%, for example. Since the most physically mighty pretenders pay the most for high levels of magic, this would make it difficult to have physically strong pretenders that are also powerful mages (unless you count immobiles, which are physically tough but have a hard time using it offensively).

This makes the most "instant supercombatant" gods more expensive (at least if you want strong magic on them), while making the less popular and less directly threatening mage-gods cheaper. I think it would lead to more diverse pretender selection in both SP and MP. I do admit that it would require some new code, though; it's not something that can be playtested quickly in a mod.

[mivayan]

Another idea could be to make them Immortal, so having them killed (and that's pretty easy with their stats )won't be such a game killer (the -1 in each path makes recalled RBs useless..). Let's pretend they master resurrection magic ...

This is a really neat idea, to let someone play with magic at a lower risk.

From the pretender description: The Arch Mage is a mage who has attained such power that he has mastered his own mortality. Granted this probably just means he will never die from old age, but maybe it can be interpreted as immortality. I dont think an immortal low-cost 7-slot rainbow mage would be imbalancing, it is almost useless for expansion... if you equip it and send it into a fight you can lose all those items to a stray arrow.

[PhilD]

I like Chris' idea, but then, like PDF, I like to play these weak pretenders, so...

[Cohen]

I'm up for empowering the humans pretenders ...
I like to play a lot with them ... but how to say ... what do you think when they become killed from a "seeking arrow"?
A pretender god not so godly.

They've no skill in combat.
And effectively haven't that great advantage on other Gods cause lower starting Dominion and no starting path ...

I'll change to ALL pretenders New Path Cost and Magic Level acquiring is different.

Simply the 1st level added to the chassis base is New Path Cost.
The second level is New Path Cost*2, or 3/2.
The third should be New Path Cost*3, or 2.

And so on.
Reviewing all the New Paths Costs this should be nice ... even if this idea is similar to those of the % costs.
_________________________________________________
This is for what concern Magic.
The other problem is their phisical weakness.
Immortality should be fine ... but perhaps too strong.

Because they're often Rainbow ... they'll lose a lot of Magic by Death. I'll grant immunity to this.
However they're still killed easily.
Cause they're weak and not prepared to Hand to Hand, I suggest only a little improvement in their stats. And that all should have a magic defence from rituals like seeking arrows, and so on. Probably they're skilled in magic ... so on if they've at least the same magic level of the ritual casted [or of the Caster] (ie 3 air for the Magic Arrow, or more if a more powerful air mage has casted) they "dispel it automatically" ...
This is to choose if only those targetting them, or the province (mmm the arrow probably is heading to someone near him or he can perceive the spell incoming.). In that case the human pretender should be a sort of mobile Air Dome.

Alternative ^^ House Rule: All human Pretenders.
(however seeking arrows, horrors, earth elementals and so on kills them easily unless in late game ... wish for power, total item equipped and so on)
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Reducing only the starting cost wouldn't help at all ... having 20 30 points more? What's that ... 1 magic level more or 1 dominion level more ... too small.
_________________________________________________E diting after having read the post above.
The VQ base cost doesn't matter for Ermor til he can earn 600 points from bad scales ^^ and Mictlan too ...

[ May 02, 2004, 05:52: Message edited by: Cohen ]

[Slygar]

all I can say is up with the humanoids, down with the vampire queens. Not to hijack this into yet another vq thread, but their costing the same as any of their undead immortal pretender competition (such as the bog mummy and lich) but being so obviously superior in almost every way is pretty ridiculous. They should cost 200 IMHO.

[ May 02, 2004, 05:47: Message edited by: Slygar ]

[Teraswaerto]

There are ways to protect the RB against all the assassination spells. There is no need to make them innately immune to them.

Likewise, immortality would be too much. It is something reserved for powerful undead creatures (and the Phoenix). As human mages seeking ascendancy through sheer bredth of knowledge and sleigh of hand they are supposed to be physically fragile.

Making them cost less overall (base cost, path cost, dominion cost, one or more of these) would be enough.