OT:splendid WWII movie you'll never see:(

[oleg]

Originally posted by aiken:
I think it will be a second screening of Valentin Pikul's book. First one was "Bayazet" and it was awfull. Hope this attempt will be better.

Yes, it is a screening of Pikul' book. So I have a reservation - for non-russinas here, Pikul, IMHO is a cheap bestsellerist (hmm. ) who can bloody ruin any historic event - but he is a popular in russia as Crighton (sp., sorry) in US.

Now, PQ-17 was a trully important WWII event, it could balance WWII one way or another and I would be realy sorry to see "Convoy PQ-17" follow Pikul' storyline.

It was an epic story of Heroism, Sacrifice, Cowardice and Betrail - two later terms go directly to Admiralty, sailors and officers of HM ships would fullfil their duty and save PQ-17. If only Lords have been so cowardly

[narf poit chez BOOM]

And trying to lay the blame on the British is just more rewriting of history, which is nothing new for the Soviets.

the patriot? it's nothing new for hollywood, either.

[oleg]

Thermo, we can start argue again here


Yes, PQ-17 and PQ-18 were bloody dead important.
Russia was fighting Wermascht with her latest reserves.

So it was F..g Bloody important that those supplys come through. Or, according to you - I strongly disagree, Russia would never surrender - but those ships HAD TO COME TO MURMANSK AT ANY COST. Any loss of HM destroyers and cruisers were IRRELEVANT - That is F... B... what the Navy is for. But they COWARDLY retreated, because his Admiral BLOODY F..G cared more about His position in Admiralty then the Outcome of World War Two !!!

[ February 13, 2004, 23:48: Message edited by: oleg ]

[Unknown_Enemy]

Originally posted by aiken:
compare "Solaris" by Tarkovsky and Last Sodenberg rubbish and everything will be clear. (You may also compare them both with original Lem's book and you'll understand who is the best sci-fi writer of XX century).

Not the best, but definitely a classic.
I could not bother seeing the Last picture iteration.

[oleg]

Oh, Thermo, another historical fact that should surely hurt your stand that US won WWII fighting both Germany and USSR
- Tirpiz was forced to to return to its base after Soviet K-21 launched 4 torpedoes on it. Did it score ? - may be not, but Tirpitz returned to the base immediatly and never sailed again. But HM Admerals were so puked after Bismark affair that they decided to sacriface the whole convoy and save their "warships" - I put asterisk deliberatly because those HHS should lose that privelege endowned since Lord Nelson

Bloody Shame.

[ February 14, 2004, 00:04: Message edited by: oleg ]

[oleg]

Originally posted by alarikf:
Oleg,

I live in Norfolk Virignia, US. If you are ever in the area you should check out the Naro cinema and video rental store. Why? becuase they are simply amazing in their selection.

[/QB][/quote]

Yes, sorry, I appologize. I remember a very nice video shop in Seattle (Scare Crow? sorry - around 52 street, north from UW campus ) where you can rent ANYTHING - no kidding -I was stoned just looking on the selection !!

I should post "in general release"

[oleg]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
oleg why bother

i will purchase this on dvd if i can.

and you will keep an eye out for me.

Perhaps you could help me with some other russian war movies.

I have seen a few over the years.

But I have no clue of what the titles were

actually, it is a tough task for me too
There are many - sometimes quite good but still "propaganda" movies and it is not easy to fish honest stuff. Check out stuff like "belorussky voksal", "oni srazhalis za rodinu", "a zori zdes tihii",
Or if you get it, teleserial "seventeen moments of spring"

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by oleg:
Oh, Thermo, another historical fact that should surely hurt your stand that US won WWII fighting both Germany and USSR
- Tirpiz was forced to to return to its base after Soviet K-21 launched 4 torpedoes on it. Did it score ? - may be not, but Tirpitz returned to the base immediatly and never sailed again. But HM Admerals were so puked after Bismark affair that they decided to sacriface the whole convoy and save their "warships" - I put asterisk deliberatly because those HHS should lose that privelege endowned since Lord Nelson

Bloody Shame.

Well, let�s not argue, let�s call it a debate

To your first point, how would four destroyers have made a difference? The corvettes were little more than MTB�s without the torpedoes, and I doubt they could have survived long enough to even ram the Terpitz. And where was the Soviet Navy? IMHO, any allied ship that operated east of the North Cape in the summer of 42 did so at great risk. The western fleets were still sailing ships that were fitted out before airpower had advanced to the point of being accepted as a threat to war ships. They were ill equipped to fight off land based air in 1942.

To the second point, how is it that the USSR was in a position that one convoy of supplies would have made such a difference. And let�s face facts, the Soviet field armies that drove the Nazi bastards back to Berlin consumed more tonnage a week than was loaded on PQ 17. So to say that it would have made more than a temporary tactical difference would need a lot of supporting evidence.

Now before I say anything more, let me say that my animosity is directed at the Soviet government in general and at Stalin in this particular moment in history. The Russian people that I know personally are fine people. And I hold no animosity towards the people of Russia. But there are some facts that bring great weight to this debate.

Germany fielded the most skilled military organization that the world had ever known at the beginning of WW 2. Their understanding of maneuver exceeded that of any army in the world. This is due in great part to their understanding of why they failed in WW 1. And they were under the control of one of the four most evil Groups of men in modern history. The army of the USSR was something different. Its problems stem from the fact that it was controlled by one of the four most evil men of modern history. While Hitler and the Nazi�s killed more people in the years of Nazi rule, Stalin�s government killed many more, but over a longer period of time.

Also, I seem to recall that Hitler had a willing partner when he divided up Poland. This seems to be much ignored when WW 2 is debated. The USSR was a willing partner in the single event that triggered WW 2.

With Stalin�s track record up to that point, he is lucky that the west didn�t see the eastern front as a way of killing two birds with one stone. Aiding both sides just enough to ensure that they both shot their bolts.

And one more thing. What is this Great Patriotic War stuff? And what do the old Soviets call the invasion of Poland?

[ February 14, 2004, 01:32: Message edited by: Thermodyne ]

[se5a]

nice shot of the catalina...

[oleg]

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
...And one more thing. What is this Great Patriotic War stuff? And what do the old Soviets call the invasion of Poland?...

Good post, Thermo. It will take me some time to reply in parts

But first, about Great Patriotic War. I think you read the Mein Kumpf and The Directive Barborosa. Then you should realise that the prime outcome of Hitler' victory would be the total anihilation of slavic people. Holocust was a tradegy but it could a small footnote compared to ~300 milions of dead Russians, Ukranians, Belorusians, etc. - all "inferior" races. So it was indeed The Great Patriotic War - the war for the very survivor of all us. I don't think people in the Weast, espicialy in US, who was practically untouched by WWII horrors appreciate how much it hurts us still... I was born many years after WWII and still my most vivid memories are my Family celebrations of May 9 and November 7 ,with all grownups tosting for "never ever another war"

So every time I read western media propoganda about Russian "aggression" I want to laugh and cry at the same time. What a nonsense ! Whatever we ever wanted is a secure peace. Hard to achive with Americam Imperialists building bases all around borders and dictating their will everywhere.

As to Stalin - I dispise him. He was an ars..l who killed millions and still failed to protect the country. He was a paranoic idiot directly responsible to the horrors of 41-42.

If only party listen to the lasr Lenin; letters in 1922 ...

[ February 14, 2004, 02:43: Message edited by: oleg ]