OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion

[Phoenix-D]

Originally posted by PvK:

quote:

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Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
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Like what, PvK? I as of current see no reliable way to ensure creators get paid for their work other than to not allow access unless they ARE paid.
...

We've had at least one other long thread about my suggestions for other ways, which were accepted by some, and balked at by others who started calling me a communist or a taxmonger or whatever. There are many possible approaches which will be more or less accepted by people with different views. So far in this thread, we're still bogged down trying to stiffle the cries that corporations should be allowed to publish data in copyable form yet we should still enforce any unauthorised act with that data. Maybe we should dig up the old thread on suggestions before dumping them on this thread as well.

PvK

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Allowed to publish data in copyable form? There IS no form that will let you access the data and still not copy it!

[Fyron]

Originally posted by PvK:
So far in this thread, we're still bogged down trying to stiffle the cries that corporations should be allowed to publish data in copyable form yet we should still enforce any unauthorised act with that data.

Yet another interesting way to read Posts... Corporations are irrelvant to the discussion at hand. Pirating SE4 is still quite possibly stealing it, even though MM and Shrapnel hardly qualify as corporations.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
...Which would require the copyright owners relinquishing their rights to their creations to the public domain, which makes downloading them for free no longer an issue of theft at all.

Exactly.

It still does not change the fact that music etc. can be copyrighted, thus making acquiring it illegally be stealing it.

Sure it does. A new concept akin to copyright could give you the exclusive right to keep it to yourself and not publish it, or to offer it in ways that people can't copy, if you can pull that off somehow without recourse to lawsuits, and to be recognized and rewarded by society for your creation, by mechanics to be agreed upon. But it absolutely changes your right to claim "stealing", because it would no longer considered "property" by anyone. Once you published something in a trivially copiable form, others would have the right to share it around, and you'd be happy, because more people would appreciate your work, and the new mechanism would give you more fame and fortune.

PvK

[ December 04, 2003, 02:01: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Fyron]

All this cross-posting makes me want to repeat myself... I will instead just let you catch up PvK.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
... Corporations are irrelvant to the discussion at hand. ...

I'd say they're relevant in several ways, particularly as I said, as the champions of the concept of "intellectual property". Huge corporations and their bought politicians are the main group behind the movement to try to control and restrict every act of copying data, because they are the dragons sitting on the treasure horde, and as long as they can pull it off, they can charge admission to see the treasure they sit on, even though they didn't create it.

PvK

[Fyron]

Thanks for mutating the discussion into a whole new direction PvK.

[Phoenix-D]

On the XP search issue: I don't like the "new and improved" XP search dialog; it is at the very least clumsy.

Fortunately, it can be turned back to the earlier style. Just by using the UI you can get it to a slightly better form, or you can download Tweak UI and turn it back to the Win2000 form (which I presume is also the 98 form, testing now)

[PvK]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:

quote:

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Originally posted by PvK:
... So far in this thread, we're still bogged down trying to stiffle the cries that corporations should be allowed to publish data in copyable form yet we should still enforce any unauthorised act with that data. ...

Allowed to publish data in copyable form? There IS no form that will let you access the data and still not copy it!

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There used to be plenty, because it didn't use to be possible to trivially copy practically any media. That's how the old system made a little sense. Nowadays, it's becoming increasingly easy to copy and distribute data of most kinds, and so that business model is making less and less sense.

There are still some reasonable ways to control content for sale though, some old and some new. For example, performances where the audience comes to a venue, as can be reasonably asked as a condition of attendance, to not make copies. Movie in theaters, plays, concerts, etc. New examples are systems which require a server and generate a unique experience, such as an MMORPG, or a value-added opponent matching service. If publishers are really interested in this sort of business model, they could possibly build in server components to traditionally client-side games, although that could be kind of silly. Imagine for instance that you got the GUI for SE4, but you had to connect to servers at Malfador.com to play the game for more than a few turns.

However, I think most of this kind of business model is a bit silly, particularly in light of the ease of duplication. Society should embrace and benefit from it, and not start inventing perverse ways to try to preserve the old ways when they no longer make any technological sense. There are serious ninnies out there who think the answer is to illegalize devices that can copy data without checking every byte for a copyright stamp, etc. Sounds like from the article I posted a link to, that the CEO of Turner wouldn't mind having your TV watch you to see if you're not watching during TV commericals. Did he read 1984 and think "Mindscreen... hmm... good idea!"???

My suggestion is that we need to find new ways to award creation as a society, that don't involve the absurd and wicked task of trying to control everyone's every data transaction, and that allow us to share all published data freely, and more directly reward the actual creators, and not the bloated leech media cartels.

PvK

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

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Originally posted by PvK:
The definition of "stealing" isn't so much the question as the definition of "property" is. See my previous post.

PvK

We seemed to be operating under the assumption that it qualified as property, so then the issue became whether acquiring wrongfully was stealing it or not. But since music, etc. is property under current models...

Now, whether they should be "property" or not is an entirely different debate. One that I believe you will see I am inclined to agree with you on (at least partially)...

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I'll move this to the top in case you missed it in all the cross-posting PvK. It also applies to a later post you made.

[deccan]

Originally posted by PvK:
My suggestion is that we need to find new ways to award creation as a society, that don't involve the absurd and wicked task of trying to control everyone's every data transaction, and that allow us to share all published data freely, and more directly reward the actual creators, and not the bloated leech media cartels.

Do you have any ideas for business models that might work on these principles?

And oh, if I do make a pile of money from this, don't expect me to give you a cent. Freedom of information and all that, you know.

[ December 04, 2003, 08:43: Message edited by: deccan ]