Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk

[Fyron]

Well... it is likely that SE5 will have real time combat execution, which automatically factors in initiative stuff and elimates the dozens of idiosyncracies inherent in any turn based movement system.

PvK, I am not convinced that really has to do with gameyness, so much as realism. Gamey and real are not terms that have anything to do with each other.

[PvK]

What's your definition of gamey, Fryon?

[Grandpa Kim]

When I first started playing PBW, there was no mention of gaminess. If it was possible, you could do it, no questions asked. Now it seems if I take a deep breath someone complains. Things I've been doing routinely are now being questioned. I'd like to say, I don't know why, but I have some ideas.

#1. Pre-arranged excuse. "I lost because this was allowed". Since it can't possibly be the players own fault, he finds something to blame.

#2. Boredom with the standard rules. This one makes sense. By calling something gamey, you have a good enough reason to ban it from the game. But I do think most people are like Tesco: put it in the house rules and we will follow those rules. If it ain't there, it's allowed, gamey or not.

Mostly, the extremes some people go to to whine about perceived inequities are making me see why many people prefer to play within their own crowd. In fact, I'm leaning that way myself. Constant bickering and complaining about something that "should have been disallowed" is a real turn off and takes a good portion of fun out of the game. It's been said before: If you want a dead even game, play chess.

I do think all the talk about gamey moves has brought these whiners out of the woodwork and they now feel justified in pointing out every little bump in the road-- and we supplied them with the ammo! This is unfortunate because the subject should be discussed if only to make the list Fyron has started. But if you join a game, you accept the rules-- no whining, no *****ing and smile when you bite the dust.

(Hmm, that sounds like a rant... not my intent.)

[Rollo]

well said, Grandpa Kim

[Fyron]

The entire reason I created the list was to try to get every possible thing people could whine about cleared up at the start of every game.

Best rule of all to have:

If it is not explicitly forbidden by the game rules, it is allowed.

I suggest every game created from this point on have this rule in 2x font size, bold, and yellow, at the very beginning of the description. That should clear up the whining...

In fact, I request that Geoschmo add this to the default PBW game description (just the rule, not the bold yellow stuff ), so all new games created will have it in there (unless the host removes it).

[ July 30, 2003, 07:58: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Fyron]

Originally posted by PvK:
What's your definition of gamey, Fryon?

That is a good question, which I can not give a definite answer too. I can certainly tell you that realism does not really have a whole lot to do with gameyness. So what if the ramming feature is unrealistic? A lot of things in the game are unrealistic, but not gamey. Such as police troops. Lets fill LA with troops and see what happens. Will people start partying (jubilant)? Hell no. There will be protests, riots, etc. Certainly no increase to happiness. Garrisoned troops should at best make the planet rise from unhappy to indifferent (for riot control and such). They should not make the people happier than that though, except for possibly some alien races that have odd ways of thinking. But for most races, tons of troops around is not seen as a good thing.

From other thread:

Originally posted by Grandpa Kim:
Playing on a map you made yourself.

That isn't gamey, that is cheating. Unless, of course, you tell the players in the game and they do not mind. Otherwise, is is just plain cheating. I have used maps I have made (modified, really) in some PBW games I have hosted, but I told the players (we were using Ringworlds as HWs ) and took Ancient Race (and told them that too), so no muss, no fuss.

Selecting low ship and unit limits.

That is not gamey, especially if the limits are clearly stated. It is just creating a different kind of game. I would say that setting low limits AND not telling the players about them would be a very dishonorable thing to do, and I would certainly never play with a player that did that. But, it is not really an issue of gameyness, so much as integrity.

[ July 30, 2003, 08:16: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[tesco samoa]

25. Emergency building when there is no emergency.

Sorry you lost me on that one

[tesco samoa]

G Kim agree with you.

When I set up games my goal is to run a game that people will enjoy as the goal is to have some fun and excape from life for about 20 minutes every other day

And I enjoy attempting to make this happen for the players.

And just being the Game Admin is a great way of chatting with people and seeing their interpertation of what is going on and comparing it to what the other side sees.

Now that is a pleasure. I recommend that game hosts do this everyonce in a while ( if their not playing in the game )

I try to make the PBW game like chess at the beginning.... Equal for all. with the rules posted. I am more concerned about people dropping out with no notice and speed of play.

[geoschmo]

From now on I only play games with Grandpa Kim.

[geoschmo]

I never even cared about the whole gamey thing until the issue with the 100 mines came up originally. In the period of a couple months I was basically labeled a cheat by a couple people, one of whom I knew fairly well, and we ended up losing a PBW admin over it. Nasty incident. Left me quite shell shocked I don't mind telling you. As a result I stated encouraging game owners to delineate this stuff up front and we pushed hard to get the 100 mine limit loophole closed. Not because I particularly cared one way or the other, but just because some others cared about it so strongly.

But given the choice I prefer playing with as few rules as possible and usually stick to a core group of players I know as Grandpa suggests.

Geoschmo