UI Glitches

[Fyron]

Since it infinitely uses resources to NOT build something, it is most definitely a bug. Thanks for the challenge. I tested it. It absolutely appears to use those resources. I'll email Aaron a savegame. Since it's a bug instead of just a UI choice, Aaron can either ignore it or act on it.

That's news to me! And, it does indeed make it a bug (if it uses resources when trying to repeat build a facility and the planet is already filled with facilities). The best solution would be to clear the build queue (and not the Repeat Build) if it is set to repeat build a facility, and the planet is full.

Sorry for the inflammatory remarks.

There were inflammatory remarks?

Thanks for your help!!

Glad I could be of service.

Okay. Fine. You build stuff in SEIV. You format stuff in Word. That is about the closest you can get between a game and a word processor. Change that example to be infinitely formatting the same word to make it bold.

That basically means that you CAN NOT make an analogous comparison between the two. Its like comparing a firm matress to an apple. You can't very well say "this matress is like a tasty apple", now can you? No. For an analogy to work (or even be possible), there has to be a great deal of similarity between the two objects being compared.

[ February 23, 2003, 01:44: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[raynor]

quote:

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Okay. Fine. You build stuff in SEIV. You format stuff in Word. That is about the closest you can get between a game and a word processor. Change that example to be infinitely formatting the same word to make it bold.

That basically means that you CAN NOT make an analogous comparison between the two. Its like comparing a firm matress to an apple. You can't very well say "this matress is like a tasty apple", now can you? No. For an analogy to work (or even be possible), there has to be a great deal of similarity between the two objects being compared.[/QB]

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Is the following analogy adequate? In Space Empires IV, you can endlessly expend resources building a facility that isn't ever going to be built. If MS Word performed identically, it might endlessly format a word that isn't there?

If that example isn't satisfactory, then I guess you are saying that it is impossible to compare usability between two software program unless they are both games and they are both 4x space strategy games and they both allow building stuff and they both allow queue and...

Hey... at least both Word and SEIV are software programs. I dare you to find something so specific in your apple/mattress example.

[ February 23, 2003, 01:51: Message edited by: raynor ]

[Fyron]

Apples and matresses are both used by people. They are both physical objects. They both have mass and take up space. They could both be the same color. That's about it.

There is not a whole lot to compare between Word and SEIV.

[Suicide Junkie]

Hey... at least both Word and SEIV are software programs. I dare you to find something so specific in your apple/mattress example.

Common items in a household? Not that that really helps

Things to consider with the analogy:
- Repeat build does NOT cause an infinite loop to crash your computer
- Repeat build USUALLY is very helpful.
- You can turn it on and off anytime you feel like it, and it is never toggled without your knowledge.
- There is absolutely no problem until you forget about the system long enough for it to start repeating.

How does this sound?

There is an autosave feature (repeat build) on a generic graphics editing program. It saves (builds) to a new file (facility) each time, so as not to lose any work.
However, you are currently working on a special project (facility). It happens to be a huge map of Canada at military spy satellite resolution (spaceport - something you only want one of).
You accidentally forget to turn off the autosave(repeat build).

You work along happily, and then it autosaves a second copy, your harddrive runs out of space, and you waste time cleaning up the mess it makes(you get too many spaceports and wasted game time on them).

...

I think it would also be appropriate to note that to my knowledge nobody else here has a problem with repeat build.
That means either:
a) When they ran into the same problem as you, they said "oops. Note to self; don't do that next time" and stopped having a problem
b) They hit the problem, failed to complain at all, and tossed the game (or demo).
c) My memory is bad, or they complained when I wasn't here.

Wait! I see Nodachi mentioning just such a thing in this thread:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...3;t=005677;p=2

It's been a very long time since I uploaded a file. Can someone help me upload a savegame so I can get others to take a look and see if it's using resources?

File uploads can be made here:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=50;t=000002

Fyron: That's news to me! And, it does indeed make it a bug (if it uses resources when trying to repeat build a facility and the planet is already filled with facilities). The best solution would be to clear the build queue (and not the Repeat Build) if it is set to repeat build a facility, and the planet is full.

I have used repeat build to finish filling a planet with facilities and then start repeat building troops.
That was at least a patch ago, and I wasn't repeat building spaceyards or anything like that.
In any case, it should just clear the offending item, not the entire queue.

[ February 23, 2003, 02:58: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Well, we probably can't convince you its not a bug, if that's what you truly believe.

The question we should be asking is:
Is this worth not playing the game at all over?

Even in real life games, your interface will have a few problems.
Can you get around them, and in the end is it still fun for you when you give it your best?

[raynor]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Well, we probably can't convince you its not a bug, if that's what you truly believe.

I have a save game that demonstrates that the game will endlessly waste resources building a facility that can never be built.

In other words, the queue is set to 'Repeat Build Top Item', for example, a Refining Station. The planet already has 4 out of 4 facilities. All other build queues are "held". The Empire Options screen shows that Construction Queue usage is: 1500.

The game Version is 1.84 Gold.

Are you saying that this isn't a bug??

[ February 23, 2003, 05:43: Message edited by: raynor ]

[Suicide Junkie]

No, I was referring to the original complaints you started with.

Wasted resources with an unbuildable facility should definitely be in the list for the next patch, but in the meantime, it is not to hard to just not repeat build such facilities.

[Wanderer]

I've just tested this (v1.84) as I was a little sceptical

[edit] resource wastage occurs if you put more than one facility in a build queue then hit 'repeat'. Seems someone's already found this out so I've shortened my post.

1) The planet using resources up to no good effect sounds like a bug to me. Perhaps all facilities (not just the top item) should be removed from the build queue when the planet becomes full (ditto for cargo if the cargo limit is reached)?

2) This can only be achieved by player mis-use - if you're going to repeat build a facility until the planet is full, why place a second facility in the build queue? SJ's 'repeat build a facility then mass produce troops' sounds like a good way to get the best out of the repeat build function. I agree it'd be nice to repeat the entire queue, not just the top item, but at least the option does exactly what it says on the tin. It's not a UI glitch.

[ February 23, 2003, 05:57: Message edited by: Wanderer ]

[raynor]

2) This can only be achieved by player mis-use - if you're going to repeat build a facility until the planet is full, why place a second facility in the build queue?

Herein lies the problem. The game doesn't turn off 'Repeat Build' when you clear the queue. In my opinion, that is the intuitive behavior.

This game has lots of folks who love it so much they would rather pawn off all its idiosyncracies as player misuse. I would imagine most of the players of this game are still on the nVidia and AMD band wagon as well.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by raynor:
An escort size vessel can only have one bridge.

With standard data files.

IMHO, a well thought-out UI would either remove or gray out the bridge component after you have added one to the ship. SEIV does neither of these. Instead, it tells you that you have too many.

The logic and data file search required to perform this on an arbitrary data file is far more complicated than the problem warrants.

Did someone say that it makes sense for 'Repeat Build' to repeat build the first item--even if the queue contains ten items? IMHO, if the queue contains more than one item, the program should warn you that the second item will never be built.

The program does. It's in the text that describes that only the first build item will be repeated.

Similarly, if the 'Repeat Build' option is selected, then the program should not allow you to add another item to the build queue.

As others have pointed out, there are valid reasons for allowing the other queue items to remain. I know I'm glad for it when dealing with the 100+ shipyards I have in orbit of my homeplanet in a proportions game. Without that, I would have to do far more mouse clicks to change a queue back to its standard repetitive build after building a few other units.