Stielgranate

[Kiwikkiwik]

Weapons 130 and 131 have the wrong penetrations. Both should be 18 not 12 and 15 This can be corroberated at many web sites. Heres one
http://www.inert-ord.net/rod02h/stielgr/index.html
This site also gives the stielgranate41 an effective range of 6 hexes you have it at 4.
The Book The History of the Panzerjäger: Volume 1: Origins and Evolution 1939–42 by Thomas Anderson talking about the tactical deployment of the weapon says

it is important to keep the stielgranate(41) well hidden until the target comes within 300m.

stielgranate41 and 42 have the same warhead just different adaptor on the back for the different guns.
There is a good discussion of both munitions here.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=305973

Note the issue dates given in the link differ from those in the game. They are feb 42 for the stielgranate41 and Mar43 for stielgranate42 you have 6/42 for both.

Also these are AT guns units 712 and 713, they would still have their normal AT and HE allocations as well as a few stielgranate shells. Can the AP and HE shells be included in the weapon slots of these units instead of SMGs and Gebalt ladungs?
The Book Small arms, artillery and special weapons of the Third Reich by Gander and Chamberlan mentions that Unit 9 Flak 36 also fires the Steilgranate41 as do weapons 24 4.7cm PaK 36(t) and the 3.7 PAK 37(t) the last I think is not in your OOB
The book has two very nice pictures of the stielgranate41 mounted on flak guns, so 3.7cm SP FLAK, units 324 and 483 probably also fire the munition. Introduction date would I think be the same as for the stielgranate41 for the 3.7cm PAK as it looks as though the flash hider is removed from the FLAK so the stielgranate can fit over the barrel which of course is the same diameter as the PAK the pictures look to be of a FLAK mounted on a vehicle though it is hard to make out exactly.

Note that there is also a stielgranate42 issued for the 150mm howitzer which appears to be an oversize thin skinned HE bomb packed with 60lbs of explosive giving a really massive blast effect out to about 1000 yds.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik

There is a good discussion of both munitions here.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=305973

Yes ...conflicting information---- particularly range

As near as I can tell those two weapons have been in the OOB unchanged and unquestioned for at least a decade and a half so I'm betting conflicting info was found then as well and what was entered was a compromise.

The info is on the list now and I'll see what I can find.

There will be no change to the ammo load and weapons for units 712 and 713 but you can edit your own OOB with MOBHack if you like

[Kiwikkiwik]

Here is something from lone sentry on penetration.

http://www.lonesentry.com/ordnance/3...k-grenade.html

One was statically detonated against the face of 7-inch homogeneous armor plate. It penetrated completely, leaving a hole 2 1/8 inches wide at the face and 1 1/8 inches at the rear

For range there is this,

Terry Ganders book German anti tank guns 1939-1945 says the stielgranate has an accurate range of less that 200m but later on in the book a picture caption says it is effective only at short ranges-about 400 yards maximum.

I am curious as to why the PAK stielgranates cant have their normal HE and AT ammo as well as a few stielgranates? In Terrys book a picture for the gun clearly shows it with a stielgranate on the barrel and normal 3.7 rounds all around the gun.

a cropped version of this picture is available here

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2015/1...7-cm-pak-3536/

[DRG]

Becasue the "weapon" in this special case is the stielgranate which has a significantly larger warhead size than 37mm AP. I suppose it could be handled like we do the Russian ATGM firing tanks in MBT with the stielgranate on the second line and normal HE / AP on the first but it would require further testing and scenario use checking all of which takes time I could otherwise be spending on other things rather than a unit / weapon combination that has been set up like it is for 2 decades

As for that photo.....one of your other sources says that " may be a standard H.E. round or possibly the special blank launching cartridge"

[DRG]

Well MUCH to my surprise none of the scenarios in the game now or that will be released with the next patch use that unit/weapon combination. I can only assume that by the time it was in service so is the 7.5 L48 which is a much smarter, more useful choice for either a scenario or a regular game which is the mostly likey reason NOBODY ever b*tched about it until you came along......so tell me... how often do you use that weapon in a game?

[Kiwikkiwik]

The uncropped picture shows at least 12 shells all together probably not all steilgranate blanks. Common sense says the gun would still be issued its usual HE AP ammunition as it has a truck to transport it and not every target is a MBT. There are still plenty of armoured cars, halftracks, light tanks and MG pits where the standard AP/HE loadout is very useful. The stielgranate is just an additional shell for the the original gun to prolong its life, not a new weapon system. Many second rate formations were probably still lumbered with 37s right up to wars end as production could never keep up with demand for anything in the German Army.
I do like to buy the less travelled equipment, Its more of a challenge to play. Doubly difficult as the cost structure is so flat. Which is why most players habitually go for the best and brightest I guess.

[DRG]

....only it will not " prolong its life" it will ensure that it will fire earlier using the standard ammo unless the player manually sets the range to the steilgranate revealing it's position before the steilgranate can be effectively employed and destroyed long before it gets to fire one. The only game use for that unit now is in games were the visibility is low or it's set up in an ambush position as a last ditch defence where it cannot be seen until it's within the range of the steilgranate

[Kiwikkiwik]

Well I guess giving itself away would be exactly how a normal 37mm would act anyway?
and the cost for the 37 with the extra stielgranate probably wouldn't be that much different anyway. Yes your right of course the range needs to be set low if you don't want to be spotted early, I play the game at 85% spotting which usually keeps a stationary 0 sized unit in cover out of sight, But it would be an advantage to be able to ping the armoured cars as they snoop around, but if spotted, lay smoke, mount up, retire and still have the ability to take on the following heavies later. I think played well it would be a very handy asset. You would have the choice of how to play it, If the opponent doesn't field any heavies the weapon is still useful. I don't think of it as a stielgranate with AP ammo but just a 37mm gun that has a few extra shells allowing it to hit out close and hard.

[Kiwikkiwik]

I found something relevant about Stielgranate that might be useful, a quote from Andersons The History of the PanzerJager

from Von Mullers information leaflet on the munition

Its most effective combat range is less than 130m, but under exceptional circumstances a stationary target can be defeated at up to 250m range.

From an after action report,

The first tank was hit at 150m range, the second at 100m.

and

It is important to keep the Stielgranate well hidden until the target comes within 300m. Beyond this point the tank can easily destroy the gun.

I don't know but I imagine that the 5cm blank cartridge being bigger than the 3.7cm would have meant the 5cm gun would shoot the Stielgranate faster, further and so would have a better effective range than the same munition on the 3.7cm gun. I don't know if the reports above refer to 3.7cm, 5cm or both.