Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports

[jivemi]

Greetings SP fans. Just finished an assault battle wherein a platoon of Merkavas expended all their HE ammo (save for 4 HEAT rounds) against maybe a dozen obstinate squads and RPG guys on a short ridgeline (four hexes at the top, plain Earth). As the tankers were thus engaged a crescendo of bombardment--perhaps a dozen tubes from 105mm Howitzers to 203m Batteries--crashed down on the target group over the course of 6-7 turns.

Ultimately friendly grunts riding APCs had to finish off the die-hards who refused to abandon their positions even though--for a couple of turns anyway--a few of my units were within the requisite 200 meters (but not in LOS) for enhanced flight encouragement (please see old thread below, Andy's reply post #3). During the entire course of this engagement I did not receive a single message indicating that ANY entrenched casualties had occurred from bombardment (which included 155mm Guns); just one or two routers who had already been driven out by direct fire.

Likewise, since I had plenty of arty, suspected enemy positions were subjected to sustained bombardment by heavies without ever receiving a casualty message. When friendly troops were in sight and range of enemy occupying these areas they seemed to fire back with undiminished fury and effectiveness (the ATGM dismounts were especially unpleasant). Once again direct fire from tanks or APCs, then close-and-personal infantry, was necessary to kill or drive them out. Bombardment was useful only for suppression.

Also have had experiences where my dug-in infantry were on the receiving end of sustained heavy bombardment over 6 turns or more without taking a single casualty. Even rockets--although not CM in these cases--caused nary a scratch.

My questions are:
1) Do 155mm and higher arty (as mentioned in the thread) actually cause casualties among dug-in infantry or dismounts (AT/ATGM teams), or must the targets first rout out of their positions?
2) Do you always get a casualty message (my message delay is set at 1/2) when they're caused by bombardment? IIRC units getting hit sometimes diminish in size or disappear completely w/o a corresponding message of confirmation.
3) With regard to friendly troops being within 200 meters to lower morale among the target(s), do your guys have to be in LOS of the enemy while this saturation bombardment is going on?

Here's the thread link: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44251

Thanks for your kind attention and happy gaming!

[Suhiir]

Dug-in anything, especially infantry type units, are VERY tough to damage/dislodge.

Yes it can be done with mortars/artillery/bombs but it takes a while, 3-6 turns. You'll rarely cause casualties as long as they remain in position but eventually the suppression will cause them to abandon their position.

[Imp]

Heavy arty definitely causes causalities 105s down rare more use for suppression. Been on the receiving end & very occasionally it can be quite severe not just the odd man half a squad gone.
Persuading dug in units to retreat using artillery alone requires a decent amount in one turn, one tube is okay to pin units to assist an attack but they need a heavy hammering normally over a turn or 2 to vacate the relative safety of the fortification.
Get to route status with arty & then direct fire at, slightly easier to hit damage I think though they still sometimes stay put to the last man.
I to am using Merkavas & APC MGs to clean out but not at 200 meters more like 400-700m.

[RightDeve]

First thing comes in mind: if that is a scenario battle you're playing, probably the designer had set enemy's infantry toughness to 170% maybe, and reduced quite a good amount on your Arty Effectiveness value.

150 - 203 mm are quite big warhead sizes, and as you say sustained bombardment, normally is enough, not only to kill a few but to rout them running toward the edge. But often the "random dice" roll favors some souls, and despite being a direct hit, they're not even suppressed, while those two hexes away get two casualties & retreating.

Yes, ours or enemy's squads getting casualties from arty don't always get the casualty-message, just the visual-display shows reduced men.

[scorpio_rocks]

I believe that some messages are not displayed if you have "fast artillery" on.

[Wdll]

I must been playing a different game as I never had any problem losing or causing casualties to enemy infantry, even entrenched.
Then again, I don't play scenarios, which can change things by a lot.

Something that used to be accurate, I haven't REALLY played the game for a couple of patches now and don't know if they changed it since then, CM artillery is better for killing enemy infantry.

[IronDuke99]

Have to say I generally put up the artillery values (in prefrences) across the game. 150% in WWII games and 175% in modern games.

Remember Artillery was the number one cause of casualties in both WWI and WWII.

[shahadi]

A few things come to mind from other threads: remember a hex is 50 meters, so to dislodge dug in infantry takes some roll of the dice in the game engine. Patience especially if you play with default preferences. Eventually, keep in mind a turn is 2 minutes, they will succumb.

Speaking of WW2, naval bombardments ( very big munitions) of Japanese positions on Okinawa preceeded each attack. The Japanese exacted even attrition with each reinforced attack. Not until well into the infantry assault did the Japanese fold.

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[IronDuke99]

As someone who is interested in things Naval. In WWII British destroyers more than once engaged German Tanks over open sites, and a 4.5 or 4.7inch armour piecing shell was sure to ruin a Panzer crews whole day.

Also German sources make it clear that Allied Battleship gunfire in Normandy could easily wreck even a Tiger tank, actually tossing them on their backs. A 14-16inch HE shell (used for shore bombardment, rather than the armour piercing shells used to take on other Battleships) was a really fearsome thing.

Also High Explosive shells were actually okay at taking out barbed wire. The problem in WWI was that field artillery (British 18pder, German 77mm and French 75mm) used shrapnel shells, with a relatively small bursting charge that sent a lot of steel balls towards the target when the shell burst. Great against infantry in the open, less so against dug in infantry and not good at all against barbed wire. HE shells -much more common in WWII- can actually gap barbed wire pretty well.

Final thoughts, I do think that the game slightly under estimates how good WWII artillery was against infantry. I do think the game slightly under estimates how good modern artillery can be against armour.

Final last thoughts: World War II aircraft, even the best of them like the rocket armed RAF Hawker Typhoon of 1944-45, were not as effective against armour as the game makes them. Mostly the unguided rockets missed... In the modern game CBU's from aircraft really should totally ruin infantry in the open.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by IronDuke99

As someone who is interested in things Naval. In WWII British destroyers more than once engaged German Tanks over open sites, and a 4.5 or 4.7inch armour piecing shell was sure to ruin a Panzer crews whole day.

Also German sources make it clear that Allied Battleship gunfire in Normandy could easily wreck even a Tiger tank, actually tossing them on their backs. A 14-16inch HE shell (used for shore bombardment, rather than the armour piercing shells used to take on other Battleships) was a really fearsome thing.