Visibility Scenario #336

[jivemi]

In scenario #336, Forcing the Elbe, visibility is listed as 15. Yet Belgian units (Strikers and Scorpions) without thermals are hitting my guys beyond that range with ATGMs. Is the visibility figure wrong or am I missing something? Thanks.

Edit: This issue has already been covered in the game manual (see Unit Info Screen and Encyclopedia Screen) along with a relatively recent thread: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=51274 Sorry for the oversight .

[shahadi]

Originally Posted by jivemi

In scenario #336, Forcing the Elbe, visibility is listed as 15. Yet Belgian units (Strikers and Scorpions) without thermals are hitting my guys beyond that range with ATGMs. Is the visibility figure wrong or am I missing something? Thanks.

I am certain the Strikers and Scorpions have a unit visibility greater than the scenario visibility. Their visibility rating of 30 enables those units to see 30 hex LOS.

Thermals have visibility ratings of 40 or greater enables the unit to see through smoke, etc.

You may refer to the game guide checking visibility and vision keywords for additional discussion.

I noticed Victory Flags 9 through 20 are unassigned in the gray hex border area of the map.
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[DRG]

Originally Posted by shahadi

I noticed Victory Flags 9 through 20 are unassigned in the gray hex border area of the map.
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Scenario is designed to be played Human vs Human.....the only time grey hex V flags are an issue is when playing against the AI......that said all V hexes should be placed on the map even if they are doubled up and given minimal value but in this scenario if played as it was designed to be played the edge hex v flags are not an issue

That said if this scenario IS played against the AI It would probably play better with the computer playing as the defender, otherwise it's a bit of a turkey shoot

Don

[jivemi]

Originally Posted by DRG

Scenario is designed to be played Human vs Human.....the only time grey hex V flags are an issue is when playing against the AI......that said all V hexes should be placed on the map even if they are doubled up and given minimal value but in this scenario if played as it was designed to be played the edge hex v flags are not an issue

That said if this scenario IS played against the AI It would probably play better with the computer playing as the defender, otherwise it's a bit of a turkey shoot

Don

So what's the story on those grey-area V hexes? Do they ever count at all or are they completely irrelevant? (The battle ended a turn early before I had a chance to take it.) Thanks.

[Aeraaa]

Originally Posted by jivemi

So what's the story on those grey-area V hexes? Do they ever count at all or are they completely irrelevant? (The battle ended a turn early before I had a chance to take it.) Thanks.

I;ve tried to take them in the same scenario and I was unsuccessful.

[shahadi]

Originally Posted by Aeraaa

In this scenario, as designed they do not count. They are neutral. However, playing against AI, they may cause the AI "to have fits" (Game guide.)

If, say victory hex was Russian and you were playing Belgium, you'd want to get those points before end of game.

I;ve tried to take them in the same scenario and I was unsuccessful.

If you move infantry or a vehicle over the neutral hex the unit will go off-map but you will earn the points at game end.

You really want to consult with the game guide.

To play this scenario against AI, I would want those gray neutral hexes on map with Belgium control.

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[jivemi]

Right you are shahadi. Thanks. Should've known that, silly me .

[jivemi]

@shahadi: As a matter of fact one of my Russian T-80s was two hexes from the off-map VH when the game ended on turn 24, one turn from the limit. At that point the final score was 678:5404 (Russians are second player), not quite enough for a DV. After reloading--I'd assumed the game would continue until I got that juicy 3,000-pointer which was still up for grabs as it showed white--this time I moved that same T-80 next to a retreating Leopard-1A5 and blew it away, thus securing 198 more points. After pressing end-turn the game ended, and this time I had 5606, enough for a DV. So the Belgians obviously hadn't grabbed that off-map VH, as witness their low score and the VH in question still colored white.

@Imp: OK so "thoroughly" could mean "almost totally" in which case you're right. IIRC that situation has occurred before. So going back to what Don and Aeraaa said about that off-map VH, it's irrelevant to the scenario.

However my original question about them was, are they ALWAYS irrelevant in the sense they never count as part of the score? Thanks.

[Imp]

I would expect they act exactly as victory hexes always do, if a side owns it at the end you score the points.

Very easy to verify set up a 2 turn battle just buy a platoon for each side.
Place victory hexes on a grey hex & one of your units beside it.
Move that unit onto the victory hex, it will leave the map next turn.
Press end turn till game ends.
Check scores.

As a scenerio designer you could place neutral victory hexes behind a defender to make them retreat to hold them. Placing a few individualy with max points in the grey to cause withdrawl off map.

Fighting withdrawls are surprisingly difficult to do, perhaps because they are a very rare event in this game. Falling back a few hexes with part of your force is an entirely diffrent process to trying to fall back a large distance with all of your force.
PBEM campaign though it can become a very valid tactic, better to survive relativly intact & try again than get decimated & start the next battle in trouble.
That said chasing an organised retreat is also a very difficult thing to do.
Withdrawing is sort of like bounding fire shoot & scoot but while pulling back, some run some fight then swap.
Pre TI smoke is incredibly powerfull, combination of arty dischargers & tanks firing the stuff can turn the tide.
I have changed tactics part way & gone back on the assault after carefull & slightly lucky use of smoke to cut off part of an opponents force.

The variety of units & situations you can encounter are what make this game so replayable along with the fact the unexpected can & does just happen. Era plays a huge part to well trained troops with accurate modern support vehicles fast reacting arty etc there is a good chance things go to plan if your a major power.
WWll heck you best have a fluid plan because things are almost certainly going to go wrong, lesser accuracy allows for a far larger range of outcomes & lack of unit cohesion mobility etc makes reacting a much slower process.
Sorry drifted off topic but never really thought about this before this game is very good the overall feel you get seems bang on target.
I can pull off an ambush at 1.5K with far more certainty on the outcome in a modern MBT than I can at a few hundred meters in my T-34. Modern well trained troops are also far easier to control & hence get the expected outcome with than lesser trained 3rd world troops, the changes might be subtle but they are actually noticable once you play long enough. Which takes me straight back to what makes this so replayable, changes might be subtle perhaps only your subconcious has noticed them but it weighs up the pros & cons of the situation & then that tank pulls off a kill with a 3% hit chance & your back to figuring out how to save the day.
Heck lets give it just one more go I figured out the tactics for those other games & there now back in their boxes collecting dust but this game keeps giving me new challenges & that is just awesome.

[jivemi]

Well Imp, what I did was go back to an earlier save when the Belgian units near the off-map VH weren't stunned by artillery and, switching sides, tried to move any of them onto the hex in question. None of them did so, since that hex was on the north (upper) off-map edge. Yet when I moved them to the western (left) off-map edge they duly exited.

Can't say what would happen if the grey-area VH is on an east-west (or right-left) map-edge, but it seems that if it's north-south (upper-lower) then it's simply inoperative since units can't exit the map that way. Here's a couple saves to demonstrate:

(Yes I'm as [more?] enthusiastic about this game as you are. Thanks for sharing your experiences and joie de vivre. Cheers!)