Problem with the turn based system

[JakeRS]

Even though I only consider real time games as realistic, nonetheless I love winspmbt, however the turn based thing is always chasing me away, how do I solve this problem:
First I put 6 T-90 tanks on one side and 6 Abrams tanks on the other side and everything worked fine, they both fired shots, there were losses on both sides and everything was fine as it should be in real life. However, after that I put 6 yugoslav/serbian M-80 IFV's (20mm cannon) on one side and on the other side 3 Croat Patria's with the grenade launcher (40mm if I am not mistaken) and another 3 with .50 cal I think, don't remember...anyway, the result was that no one on the yugoslav side even shot a single shot, the only vehicle that was shooting was the Patria with the grenade launcher and I think only one of the 3, in the meanwhile the yugoslav m-80's didn't even try to move or something, but were just sitting ducks, I ran the same scenario at least 5 times, but always the same thing, so what is the problem here?

Also would it be possible that in the future you make a option to play in real time? I know its probably not easy, but it would seem way more realistic, since in the turn option you can't for example influence the battle, you can't do a fake attack&retreat and so on (at least in larger strategies)

[Oche]

I understand your frustration, but asking for a real time module of any Steel Panthers derived game is a kind of a blasphemy considering the turn based nature plus all the improvements and evolution done to the opportunity fire system (precisely implemented to offset the absence of the real time aspect of the simulation) game code along the years since the game engine came out 20 years ago and more improvements done periodically.

Wth all due respect, if you want a real time modern tank tactic simulation i suggest you aim for something more in the line of this:

Graviteam Tactics: Modern Tank Battle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nq4vYHyRDY

or even maybe the Close Combat Mission: Black sea which mixes real time with turn based aspects:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTUkgFPs3Zo

[scorpio_rocks]

Remember the vehicle type (and armament) will determine how a unit behaves.

(do the croats even have a GL armed IFV? they have a Patria with ATGM...)

Also don't forget WinSP is a Wargame NOT a simulation.

[JakeRS]

So is the problem that I have with the grenade launcher really a problem or is it supposed to be that way? As I said, the tank scenario I made worked fine, I also put a lot of different types of vehicles before that, infantry, apc's of all types, everything that you could imagine and each time everything worked as it should, with both sides firing at each other, but in this scenario apparently something is wrong, I just can't figure out what or why, as I said not a single vehicle of the 6 vehicles, except one GL vehicle, is firing, so I doubt that it is supposed to be that way.

(I am not sure if I chose a Croat Patria, maybe I chose one from Finland, via the allied option, in real life I have no idea what they have, but I think that they have only .50 cal, but I may be wrong)

[DRG]

Originally Posted by JakeRS

Even though I only consider real time games as realistic, nonetheless I love winspmbt, however the turn based thing is always chasing me away, how do I solve this problem:
First I put 6 T-90 tanks on one side and 6 Abrams tanks on the other side and everything worked fine, they both fired shots, there were losses on both sides and everything was fine as it should be in real life. However, after that I put 6 yugoslav/serbian M-80 IFV's (20mm cannon) on one side and on the other side 3 Croat Patria's with the grenade launcher (40mm if I am not mistaken) and another 3 with .50 cal I think, don't remember...anyway, the result was that no one on the yugoslav side even shot a single shot, the only vehicle that was shooting was the Patria with the grenade launcher and I think only one of the 3, in the meanwhile the yugoslav m-80's didn't even try to move or something, but were just sitting ducks, I ran the same scenario at least 5 times, but always the same thing, so what is the problem here?

Also would it be possible that in the future you make a option to play in real time? I know its probably not easy, but it would seem way more realistic, since in the turn option you can't for example influence the battle, you can't do a fake attack&retreat and so on (at least in larger strategies)

First off......there are no Croatian Patras with 40 mm GL..none in the last release OOB's, none in the 2010 OOB's none in the 2012 OOBs so IDK where you found them. The only 40mm Gls in the Croatian OOB are used by " ForeignAdvisors" and one ( 1 ) commando unit. Garbage in - Garbage out...if you are going to comment on the way the game works make sure your facts are straight. There's a BIG difference between Croatia and Finland

We don't know how big a map your test was on or the terrain OR THE VISIBILITY.......so reports of failed tests without posting the test scenario is a waste of time and effort and we cannot even begin to offer an explanation without one....... We don't even know what you set your visibility to........ Yugo M-80s have 20 vision--------30 in the M-80AK .......Finn Patras have 40. If your visibility for the IFV test was say.....35 then NO WONDER the Yugo M-80s didn't fire back.......they couldn't even see the Patras that were killing them.

So methinks the answer to the question "so what is the problem here? " is "your test" but nobody can know for sure without the test

[JakeRS]

Originally Posted by DRG

First off......there are no Croatian Patras with 40 mm GL..none in the last release OOB's, none in the 2010 OOB's none in the 2012 OOBs so IDK where you found them. The only 40mm Gls in the Croatian OOB are used by " ForeignAdvisors" and one ( 1 ) commando unit. Garbage in - Garbage out...if you are going to comment on the way the game works make sure your facts are straight. There's a BIG difference between Croatia and Finland

We don't know how big a map your test was on or the terrain OR THE VISIBILITY.......so reports of failed tests without posting the test scenario is a waste of time and effort and we cannot even begin to offer an explanation without one....... We don't even know what you set your visibility to........ Yugo M-80s have 20 vision--------30 in the M-80AK .......Finn Patras have 40. If your visibility for the IFV test was say.....35 then NO WONDER the Yugo M-80s didn't fire back.......they couldn't even see the Patras that were killing them.

So methinks the answer to the question "so what is the problem here? " is "your test" but nobody can know for sure without the test

Man, chill, its a game, no reason to be angry..

As I said before, I found the Patria's in the Finn OOB, I am not sure which Patria's Croatia has in real life, so I decided to put both 50 cal and GL, even if they don't have the GL in their oob, it isn't that big of a blasphemy. For example Yugoslavia has the S-300 in their oob, even though it doesn't have it in real life and never has, so there are some mistakes, so I put both vehicles just to be sure..

Regarding the visibility thing, I said that all other scenarios worked normally, so that's not the problem, the map itself is really small and the distance between the vehicles is some 5 to 8 hexes, again, everything else works, the only problem is when I put the GL vehicle.

[Suhiir]

FPS type games in general make extremely lousy tactical games as you can only control one unit at a time out of dozens or possibly hundreds. This is why every decent tactical game I'm aware of is turn-based.
Sure some games shoe horn FPS in, but that's mostly to lure the FPS crowd into buying the game not because it's sensible for it to exist in that type of game.

[troopie]

Real Time based tactical games will NOT be realistic until you (the human) give these types of orders and have them carried out:
"Sergeant Van Kleeck, take your platoon and have them dig in on the nullah line on the map here. Richter, your mortar section will support. Lieutenant Rogers, your two armoured car platoons will probe along this line. When you encounter serious resistance Stop. Williams will bring his infantry up to support you."

troopie

[Mobhack]

Team Yankee back in the DOS days was almost there. You could order your platoons to go into vee formation, advance slow, go for point X,Y and so on and so forth. and they would happily do that.

However - the only time they would fire at an enemy was if you "jumped into" a tank and used the fancy gunner screen commands to engage it. Meanwhile all your other stuff that saw enemy happily ignored them. (The AI tanks of course, fired all by themselves...).

So your unresponsive team-mates got creamed by the AI horde without firing back. In other words a totally unplayable mess of a game. But 100% A-Ok for moving your platoons about in formations. That part of the UI was intuitive and simple to use!.

I've tried flight sims where your wingmen were semi-intelligent, but that did not work too well either - they would tend to fly off into the cloud of enemy and get themselves shot down. or fixate on a bomber and always approach from the rear where the gunners had them bang to rights - no way to tell them to do a head-on pass or a deflection shot. (Maybe flight sims are better nowadays, haven't bothered since before 2000).

I have also tried pausable real time - and that really does not work too well, either. But it is miles better than the "real time strategy" no-stopping type of game where unless you take control of things directly in a furious click-fest (or pause--stop-go-pause repeat loop if it allows that) then it all goes pear-shaped as the unit individual AI is simply pants.

About the only type of "simulation" that might conceivably work is one where each tank or rifle section had a human in charge on a multi-player type game. However having looked at these sorts of games, the problem seems to be the calibre of 11-year olds (or those that regress to that state when playing!) that turn up. IF there was one of these where one of your club "hosted" the server so all the guys were your known club members, with no stupid unknown dweebs from the Internet turning up, that might be a playable system. but those MMORP type games are hosted on company servers, open to all the flotsam hanging round out there.

IF everyone could (as in a normal wargames club!) - turn up for the appointed time. PBEM decouples players from the need for player A (In Japan say) to be up and awake at the same time as Player B in the UK say. It also solves problems like having to answer the doorbell or a call of nature!.

But the whole point of turn-based really is to get back to the look and feel of real wargaming. Real wargaming is done with 1/300 or 15mm or 1/72 models on a tabletop laid out with model terrain. Just rendered on a computer screen so you dont have to lug 10 pounds of carefully boxed lead figures, rule book, a zillion dice, 3 army list books etc, etc along to the club!.

This game is a classic style tabletop wargame, not a "simulation". Especially, its not an "RTS" type clickfest.

[Suhiir]

I've looked seriously at some of the Arma 3 "Realism" units and many seem pretty good. My problem is I totally and completely suck at FPS games as I have neither the reaction times nor the ability to select just the right pixel to fire accurately. So as much as I'd love to be join one of these groups I know I'd be more of a liability then an asset.