AA Radar Question

[PvtJoker]

I have looked at the OOBs (sorry Don, I know I shouldn't do it) and one thing about the AA Radar values (FC >= 100) confuses me. In the Mobhack guide it says:

FIRE CONTROL

• Fire Contol of 100+ is radar
• Note that FC101 is FC 1 with Radar, but can track planes through smoke and darkness.

Which indicates that FC100 would be FC0 with the ability to see aircraft through smoke and darkness. That makes little sense, since AA radars are always coupled with an electromechanical (before the 1950s) or electronic computer, which are usually better at calculating firing solutions than any local (mounted on the gun) predictor sight. That would indicate that AA guns with radar should have FC values starting from somewhere around 105 and going much higher than local control AA guns. However, that is not the case, but instead there are a lot of radar AA guns which have FC100 and many others have relatively low values.

For example: in the German OOB the M42 Duster (unit 087) has an FC value of 10, but the original Gepard (unit 088) has 100 and even the Gepard A1 (unit 089) has only 105.

Have I understood something wrong?

[Mobhack]

100 is IIRC equivalent to FC 1, so 101 would be a value of 2 FC for a non-radar equipped AAA unit. So a slight typo in the GG is all.

Andy

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

100 is IIRC equivalent to FC 1, so 101 would be a value of 2 FC for a non-radar equipped AAA unit. So a slight typo in the GG is all.

Andy

So basically the OOBs are full of radar guided AA guns with the equivalent of FC 1, which is typically allocated to WW2 style AAMGs with a simple ring sight? And nobody has noticed that before? I know this is a game primarily about tanks and stuff like AA guns are in a minor part, but here's another example from Russian OOB:

• Unit 400 BTR-40A: FC2
• Unit 402 ZSU-23-4 Shilka: FC100

So, in a good weather and daylight the BTR-40A with a WW2 style mechanical predictor sight is more likely to hit aircraft than the Shilka, which has a radar coupled to an analog electronic fire control computer?

For what it's worth, historically the Shilka worked so well that the Israelis had to stop flying below 5,000 feet unless absolutely necessary until they found ways to suppress or destroy the vehicles. Another FC100 weapon in the game (it seems), the Oerlikon 35mm guns with radar and integrated fire control computer, worked so well in the Falklands that British Harriers were forbidden to fly closer than 3,000 meters to known battery locations.

[shahadi]

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

So basically the OOBs are full of radar guided AA guns with the equivalent of FC 1, which is typically allocated to WW2 style AAMGs with a simple ring sight? And nobody has noticed that before? I know this is a game primarily about tanks and stuff like AA guns are in a minor part, but here's another example from Russian OOB:

• Unit 400 BTR-40A: FC2
• Unit 402 ZSU-23-4 Shilka: FC100

So, in a good weather and daylight the BTR-40A with a WW2 style mechanical predictor sight is more likely to hit aircraft than the Shilka, which has a radar coupled to an analog electronic fire control computer?

Interesting read. However, as I get overwhelmed at times with the massive amount of data required to build and play scenarios in this game, if we look at the Fire Control (FC) ratings we should note the opposite here. A FC rating of 2 IS NOT more likely to hit target than a unit with a FC rating of 100 even if both units have eyes on the target or LOS.

From the Game Guide (GG): "The variable (FC) acts a little like a range finder, below, but not so much, in allowing the unit to engage with better to-hit percentages at longer ranges."

BTR-40A: FC 2, RF 1, Stabilizer 0
ZSU-23-4: FC 100, RF 6, Stabilizer 2

Clearly, the Shilka is a better AA unit than the BRT-40A even if the latter has not moved in the prior turn as per the huge difference in the Stabilizer rating.

Hmm... the authors of the GG must not have studied English in the real West, as Stabilizer is incorrectly spelled as Stabiliser.

Smile.

[scorpio_rocks]

Originally Posted by shahadi

Hmm... the authors of the GG must not have studied English in the real West, as Stabilizer is incorrectly spelled as Stabiliser.

Smile.

TeeHee - I think you will find the guide is written in English (not some bastardised, colonial offshoot )

[shahadi]

Originally Posted by scorpio_rocks

TeeHee - I think you will find the guide is written in English (not some bastardised, colonial offshoot )

"Go West, young man, and grow up with the [world] country." Horace Greeley. circa 1865. Addition and emphasis my own.

Smile, you know we got it good on the west side, where the sun still shines, the babes smile your name, and you can ride a convertible all day long, into the sunset, and you ain't gotta use no AK-47!

Hoorah

[Suhiir]

Not quite.
The ZSU-23-4 is a LOT more likely to "see" its' target, specially at range, then the BTR-40A, and you can't shoot what you don't see.
Additionally you can't ignore the RF (range finder) which is 1 for the BTR-40A and 6 for the ZSU-23-4 Shilka; also the weapon Accuracy 23 for the 14.5 ZPU-2 AAMG and 20 for the 4x23mm 2A7 AA.
ALL these factors work together to determine the probability a given weapon will hit.

[Turret]

How does EW affect the chance to hit? The shilka, for example.

[PvtJoker]

The Mobhack Guide says:

Fire Control - This affects accuracy, especially against moving targets.

Which indicates that for hitting fast moving targets like aircraft, Fire Control is very important. Whether it's more important than Range Finder, I don't know. Perhaps Andy can open up the calculations a little bit for us?

Stabilizer value is very secondary to this matter, since towed AA guns do not usually more very often in any case, and even SPAA vehicles should move only occasionally in most scenarios. Weapon accuracy is irrelevant, since you can see the same low FC numbers for radar controlled gun even in cases where you have a locally controlled and radar controlled versions with more or less the same weapon. For example in the Chinese OOB:

37mm Type 74 AA (unit 802) has FC100 and RF6, but unit 446 37mm Type 55 AA has FC10 and RF6! The accuracy of primary weapons of both units is 18.

[shahadi]

Originally Posted by Turret

How does EW affect the chance to hit? The shilka, for example.

The EW rating of the firing unit is compared to the EW rating of the target unit, the larger EW rated unit then has a greater chance of hit or evasion.