Cross-OBAT issue: S-60 57mm AA gun

[sabresandy]

Across many OBATs: the Russian 57mm S-60 cannon is modeled with 17 penetration. This seems excessive for an AA gun. I can't find any source to validate that; nor did the Russians develop an APDS round for the 57mm antiaircraft gun. (Information on 57mm ammo is hard to find, but the Russian Ammo Page is one source here.)

With the current values the ZSU-57-2 and the S-60 become amazingly deadly AT pieces in that regard, being able to tackle medium tanks. I suggest that somewhere between 7 to 9 seems like a better value.

[DRG]

Could be.....IDK. 17 fits with the AP/Sabot pen a lot of other 57mm guns in that and other OOB's and it's been like that for years in the OOB's. Granted, that type of AP would be unusual in a AA gun. We'll see who else jumps in on this

[sabresandy]

17 pen is pretty good for sabot, but 11 to 12 is the APCBC penetration of WWII-era AT guns, and it seems like a fairly reasonable stat. Perhaps lower, since it's APHE instead of APCBC.

[Mobhack]

Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/57_mm_AZP_S-60 states
96mm @ 1000m
106mm @ 500m
(no angles so I'll assume its at 0)

A little playing with a test gun in MBT_APCALC seems to indicate that a base pen of 12 gives reasonable approximation of those figures, i.e. 11 at 500, and 9 at 1000 for the reliable penetration line. (Currently it's getting 15 @500 and 14 @1000).

So I'd go for that value of 12, unless someone has differing pen data - noting other than the wiki article came up on google with pen figures.

Andy

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Worldwide Equipment Guide
Dec 2011
Russian 57-mm Self Propelled SP AA Gun ZSU-57-2 _________________________
Weapons & Ammunition
Types
Twin 57-mm automatic cannons
Frag-HE
AP-T
APC-T
Typical
Combat Load
300
SYSTEM
Alternative Designations: None
Date of Introduction: 1955
Proliferation: At least 16 countries
Description:
Crew: 6
Carriage: 4 road wheels/T-54 modified chassis
Combat Weight (mt): 28.0
Length Overall (m): 8.4
Length of Barrel (m): INA
Height Overall (m): 2.75
Width Overall (m): 3.270
Prime Mover: A shortened T-54 chassis with thinner armor and only four road wheels.
Automotive Performance:
Emplacement Time (min): N/A
Displacement Time (min): N/A
Engine Power (hp): 520
Max Road Speed (km/h): 50
Cruising Range (km): 400
Fording Depth (m): 1.4
Armor Protection: 13 mm front hull and turret
ARMAMENT
Gun, Caliber, Type:
57-mm recoil-operated air-cooled cannons, S-68
Number of Barrels: 2
Rate of Fire (rd/min):
Cyclic: 210-240 (105-120/gun)
Practical: 140 (70/gun)
Loader Type: Two 5-round clips,
manual, 10 rds
Reload Time (sec): 4-8
Traverse (o): 360
Traverse Rate (o/sec): 30
Elevation (o): -5 to +85
Elevation Rate (o/sec): 20
FIRE CONTROL
Sights w/magnification:
Optical mechanical computing reflex
sight (not radar controlled)
Later variants were fitted with a
more sophisticated sighting system,
identified by two small ports in
forward upper portion of the turret.
Other Fire Control:
Absence of a tracking radar, a night vision device, and an enclosed turret makes this a daylight, fair weather weapon system only. Off-carriage radars, such as the Son-9/Son-9A (NATO FIRE CAN),
RPK-1/FLAP WHEEL, or Type 311 can be used (see pg 6-50)
The gun is linked to the battery net which receives analog voice radio alerts for approaching aircraft, including direction, altitude, and direction. Guns and battery/ battalion have air watches and forward observers.
VARIANTS
Type 80 Chinese variant on Type 69-II main battle tank chassis.
MAIN ARMAMENT AMMUNITION
Types: 57 x 348 SR
APHE, Frag-T, APC-T, HVAP-T, HE-T
Uses same ammo as the towed single S-60
Range (m):
Max Effective: 4,000
Altitude (m):
Max Effective: 4,237 at 65o
Min Effective: 0
Projectile Weight (kg):
Frag-T: 2.81
APC-T: 2.82
HE-T: 2.85
Muzzle Velocity (m/s): 1,000
Fuze Type:
Frag-T (point detonating fuze)
APC-T (base detonating fuze)
HE-T (Yugoslavian, impact [super quick] action with pyrotechnical self-destruct)
Self-Destruct time (sec): 13-17
Armor Penetration (mm CE):
130 at 1,000m, APHE
96 APC-T at 1,000 m
NOTES
The ZSU-57-2 can be employed in a ground support role.
No NBC system and no amphibious capability.
Fuel drums can be fitted on rear of hull.
The gun has auto-traverse with manual backup.

Though not mentioned above, many Russian and Czech sites noted the following...
1. Max. effective Rng. for AP rounds was 1500m.
2. Seems AP rounds were NOT used in the AA role but only for self defence or in direct ground support against Light to Med. Armored vehicles as has been mentioned already.

All you've done is made me "dangerous" here!?! Who needs WiKi when this is as good as JANE's. Above taken from first ref. from 2011. As Mi-35 was discussed data in there for that as well. You'll notice weapons configurations are offered as well for the aircraft and helicopters addressed. No help here on U.S. forces in case you're not familiar with the term "OPFOR". Next ref is older early 2000's but looks like it might cover OPFOR Armor. Ref. 3 covers Patrol Craft towards the end Volume 3 from ref. 1. Ref. 4 Ground equipment again from ref. 1.
https://wss.apan.org/1796/MNDSentine...%20Systems.pdf
https://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/weg.pdf
https://server16040.contentdm.oclc.o...ISOBOX=1&REC=5
https://wss.apan.org/1796/MNDSentine...%20Systems.pdf

Now about this arty discussion, yeah it can wait, have work to do.

John I think we can postpone the JANE's fund raiser a little longer.

Regards,
Pat