spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions

[zastava128]

Here's my big list of corrections and suggestions, primarily focusing on the communist partisans and later Yugoslav army (who will probably see the most use in campaigns anyway). The only thing that's still missing is the artillery (incl. AA), which I will post soon, when I've studied its organizational structure a bit more.

I've ignored "one-off" vehicles, training vehicles, as well as the stuff captured after Germany surrendered (note that the fighting in Yugoslavia went on for a week or two after the capitulation).

Almost all the listed equipment can already be found in the OOB of the nation that produced the item in question - I've noted the few exceptions.

Unless noted otherwise, all entries refer to the Partisans and later Yugoslav Army (not the Royal Army, četniks, ustaše etc.).

Sources:

* Bojan B. Dimitrijević: German Panzers and Allied Armour in Yugoslavia in World War Two (2013, in English). - for all armoured vehicles
* Tino Jelavić: No.352 (Y) R.A.F. Squadron (Nova Gradiška 2003 - in English) - for the Spitfires and Hurricanes
* Bojan B. Dimitrijević: Jugoslovensko ratno vazduhoplovstvo / Jugoslav Airforce 1942-1992 (Belgrade 2006, in Serbian only)
- for the Yak-3
* Reports from appendices in Ivo Omrčanin: Enigma Tito (Washington 1984, in Croatian). - for the PIAT and Boys ATR
* http://www.vojska.net/eng/world-war-...n/audrey-1943/ (in English) - mentions British delivered AT rifles


Aircraft

1. Correction: Units 268 and 269 (Hurricane and Spitfire) should remain available until 12/46. As per Yugoslavia's SPMBT OOB, these remained operational until the 50's.

2. New: Yak-3 Ubiytsa: This was actually the most common Yugoslav aircraft since 1945.
Date: 1/45 onwards

3. New: Spitfire Mk.IXe: Yugoslavia repeatedly badgered the British to give them more advanced planes. The British refused, but eventually did give them four damaged or inoperable MK.IXs. These were repaired by the Yugoslavs, and got to see some action in the last week of the war. Not sure if worth including.
Date: 5/45 onwards


Tanks

1. New: T-34/76 M1943. Originally captured vehicles deployed by the Germans were in turn captured by Partisans and used for the fighting around Trieste.
Date: 5/45 onwards

2. Correction: unit 280 (Somua S-35) - availability should be until 12/45.

3. Correction: unit 72 (T-70) - never used on Yugoslav soil, not even by the Soviet Red Army. Should be removed.

4. New: Italian CV-33/35 LF (flame tank) - several captured in 9/43. Lack of ammo meant they saw little or no action until 1945.

5. New: Italian CV-38 - several captured in 1944. Problem is that sources often don't distinguish between them and the other CV series tankettes. Earliest photo of one I have seen is from 10/44.
Date: 10/44-12/45

6. New: R-35 - captured tanks.
Date: 11/41-12/45

7. Correction: unit 279 (CV-35) should be size=1

8. Correction: units 73, 105, 110 (various Stuarts) should remain available to 12/46. The FlaK version (unit 111) is OK as-is, since they were retired from service soon after the war.

9. New: Italian M15/42 - captured tanks, may have been used in the last week of the fighting. Not sure if worth including.
Date: 5/45 onwards


Tank Destroyers, Assault Guns, SP Arty:

1. Correction: units 6 and 7 (SU-76M, SU-85) - not used by Yugoslavia until after the war. These vehicles were present in the country, but all were part of the Soviet Red Army. Should be removed or changed to 1/46-12/46 for "what if" scenarios.

2. New: Italian SMV L.40 47/32. Captured vehicles.
Date: 11/44 onwards

3. New: German JPz38(t) Hetzer. Captured vehicles.
Date: 3/45 onwards

4. Formation 144 (M8 HMC): organized into batteries of 4 vehicles.

5. Formation 145 (M7 HMC): organized into batteries of 3 vehicles.


Other Armoured Vehicles

1. Correction: unit 8 (Autoblinda) - availability should be 9/43 to 12/45.

2. Correction: unit 9 (SdKfz 222) - only captured after the war. Date should be 6/45 onwards, or the unit should be removed entirely.

3. New: American M3 Scoutcar (9/44+), Canadian Lynx (4/45+) - these were used only in very small numbers (6 scoutcars, 2 lynxes) as command vehicles. Not sure if worth including. Will need a new formation if you do.

4. New: Italian AS-37 Protetto. A few dozen captured after Italian surrender, plus a few more in 1945 (the German Ordnungspolizei in Yugoslavia used them). Will need a new Formation.
Date: 9/43 onwards

5. New: Italian Fiat Armoured Trucks. Same comments and dates as for AS-37.
-spob34, unit 364 can simply be renamed and used to represent this unit.

6. New: White AM. Used in small numbers (around 3) by Royal Army. Not sure if worth including. Will need a new formation.
-can be found in spob06, unit 407.
Date: 1/30-4/41

7. New: 250/1, 251/1 captured in small numbers since early 1945. Will need new formations if introduced.

8. Correction: unit 100 (AEC mk II): date should be 9/44-12/46.


Infantry AT weapons

1. New: Boys AT rifle: According to a British Office of Strategic services report, 72 were delivered in 11/43 and more later.
Date: 11/43-12/44

2. New: PIAT. According to a British foreign office report from 8th January 1945, 88 were delivered *by* 11/44.
Date: late 1944 onwards


Misc.

1. Suggestion: I think cavalry should be available from 1942, as it was historically used by the various local militias/guerillas and the reformed Yugoslav army.

2. Suggestion: Formation 25 (Heavy Trucks) uses the same vehicles as other Truck formations... Perhaps the ZiS truck from the Soviet OOB could be added to remedy this?

3. New: The Yugoslav army received Soviet 50mm mortars as aid.
Date: 1/45 onwards.

4. New: Schwarzlose HMGs - used by just about every guerrilla and militia group in Yugoslavia.
Date: 5/41-12/44
-can be found in spob 19, unit 90


Ustaše/Croatian tanks

1. Here's some additional tanks they employed, together with date they entered service (all would remain until 12/44, in accordance to the other Ustase tanks in the OOB):
* PzKw 39H 735(f) : 1/44
* TKS (Polish) : 5/42
* PzKw Ib : 9/41
* L6/40 : 1/44
* CV-33 : 8/41 (note that these are not the same as the “Ansaldo” present in the OOB)
* CV-38 : 1/44

2. unit 286 (Reno FT-17): there's no evidence they were ever used in their original ground combat role – they were mounted on armoured trains. Probably should be removed, or at least limited to 7/41-12/41.

3. unit 282 (PzKw IVh): were acquired in late 1944, not 1943.

[zastava128]

"250/1, 251/1" should be "SdKfz 250/1, 251/1". Sorry about that.

[Pibwl]

My 3 cents, mostly concerning pictures:

001 FT-17 - armament was probably standard WW1 8mm Hotchkiss, not FM31

005 M.28 - it had a different suspension, than FT-17 - like this: http://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/tanks/f...enault_m24.htm, so it could have a new picture

018 45L66 AT-Gun - picture of a long barrel version is 29366

021 65mm Mtn Gun - I don't know which gun it is, but a photo is used for Russian 76 mm FG - more appropriate for a mountain gun is eg. 23043

030 2x120mm Mortars - picture 56 is generic 82mm mortar. For 120mm, 13183 is used.

054 75mm Inf Gun - I don't know Yugoslavian artillery, but Chamberlain's Light and Medium Field Artillery credits Yugoslavia with several models of 76 mm Skoda guns, known there as 80 mm guns, so maybe it should be this caliber.
The picture is very similar to M.5/8 gun, which had a rage of 7 km, so a range of 152 of weapon #34 would roughly fit.
The weapon 34 is marked as 75mm M1928, but M.28 was a Yugoslavian modern 76mm Skoda field gun, with a range of 13.1 km (unless there were other M.28 guns). So maybe it should be M.5/8 gun?


056 122mm Howitzer (M.10/30) - picture is 122 mm cannon - correct is 23182 (used in Soviet OOB).
But maybe this unit should be rather Soviet newer standard M-30 howitzer? (Soviet unit 370, but with a split tail icon, eg.59, like in German oob)

Same for #67 122mm Platoon

057 37mm AA-Gun - picture should be Soviet 37 mm, eg. 23077

064 85mm AT-Gun - I don't think, that newest Russian gun (commissioned in 1946) was used in Yugoslavia. It isn't even available in Russian OOB. Besides, picture is 122mm howitzer.

069 GAZ-AA-37 - correct picture is 29355 or 27520

071 20mm AA Gun - is it Italian Breda? If so, a picture should be eg. 30150 - now it's German flak.

073 M3A1 Stuart - picture is M3A3

077 RPG Team - picture is Bazooka. For RPG-6, 351 is used.

078 AOP Light Truck - eg. 30257 is more appropriate for pre-war light truck

123,124,289,290 Partisan AT - picture is a Barricade with some firearm, and could be replaced eg. with 14033 - standard for other Partisan AT here.

133,134 76mm Field Gun - Skoda FG, picture is used for Russian Putilov. Correct picture for M.5/8 Skoda gun (or very similar) is 20070.
According to Chamberlain, it was known in Yugoslavia as 80 mm gun.

143 47mm AT-Gun - photo is German 37 mm. If it is Czechoslovak gun, that it can be 22211

165 75mm Pack Hwtzr - since it is used from 3/44, isn't it US M1 howitzer? Then, correct pic is 32150, icon = 2111 (single-tail), range should be 164 like in US oob (178)

272 Do 17K - picture is Do 217, better is 25578

Michal

[zastava128]

Just a few comments to Pibwl's suggestions.

Originally Posted by Pibwl

My 3 cents, mostly concerning pictures:

001 FT-17 - armament was probably standard WW1 8mm Hotchkiss, not FM31

I've just checked - they did indeed have 8mm MGs.

021 65mm Mtn Gun - I don't know which gun it is, but a photo is used for Russian 76 mm FG - more appropriate for a mountain gun is eg. 23043

The gun in question was apparently originally a "French Puteaux" Whether it was modified by the Yugoslavs I'm unsure.

054 75mm Inf Gun - I don't know Yugoslavian artillery, but Chamberlain's Light and Medium Field Artillery credits Yugoslavia with several models of 76 mm Skoda guns, known there as 80 mm guns, so maybe it should be this caliber.
The picture is very similar to M.5/8 gun, which had a rage of 7 km, so a range of 152 of weapon #34 would roughly fit.
The weapon 34 is marked as 75mm M1928, but M.28 was a Yugoslavian modern 76mm Skoda field gun, with a range of 13.1 km (unless there were other M.28 guns). So maybe it should be M.5/8 gun?

I think you're right, some partisan reports do mention "M.5/8 guns" later in the war.

056 122mm Howitzer (M.10/30) - picture is 122 mm cannon - correct is 23182 (used in Soviet OOB).
But maybe this unit should be rather Soviet newer standard M-30 howitzer? (Soviet unit 370, but with a split tail icon, eg.59, like in German oob)

Same for #67 122mm Platoon

This is correct. Yugoslavs called it "M1938 howitzer", but it's the same thing.

064 85mm AT-Gun - I don't think, that newest Russian gun (commissioned in 1946) was used in Yugoslavia. It isn't even available in Russian OOB. Besides, picture is 122mm howitzer.

Correct.

071 20mm AA Gun - is it Italian Breda? If so, a picture should be eg. 30150 - now it's German flak.

Yes, they had Italian Bredas.

133,134 76mm Field Gun - Skoda FG, picture is used for Russian Putilov. Correct picture for M.5/8 Skoda gun (or very similar) is 20070.
According to Chamberlain, it was known in Yugoslavia as 80 mm gun.

Not sure about the "80mm" bit, I'll try to check tomorrow at the library.

143 47mm AT-Gun - photo is German 37 mm. If it is Czechoslovak gun, that it can be 22211

Yes, it is the Czechoslovak gun.

165 75mm Pack Hwtzr - since it is used from 3/44, isn't it US M1 howitzer? Then, correct pic is 32150, icon = 2111 (single-tail), range should be 164 like in US oob (178)

This is correct.

Well researched, sir!

[Pibwl]

Maybe there could be added river monitors?...

There is already one ex-Yugoslavian in a Hungarian oob: #137 Drava (available 1/30-4/41). If a speed on water is calculated the same way, she could be faster: 13 knots (24 km/h) = 8 (now 5). Radio should be 90.

There could be also created several others, using Drava as a pattern, retaining AA gun and MG, only changing main artillery, all available 1/30-4/41:
- Vardar: had two 120/L45 and two 120 L/10 guns, 25 km/h
- Sava: had two 120/L35 (not 45) and one 120 L/10 guns, 24 km/h
- Morava: had two 120/L35, AAMG, 18 km/h.

Icon 706 represents Drava, but it could also serve for others. Maybe Morava can use 708/709, for she was slightly narrower and had single turrets fore and aft (although she had oval stern). If anybody wanted to bother with creating icons, I can upload plans of all.

Croatian navy afterwards used Sava until 9/44 (sunk) and Bosna (former Morava) until 6/44. I don't know when they were commissioned - first they had to be raised and repaired (1942?)

Michal

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Maybe there could be added river monitors?...

...

There could be also created several others, using Drava as a pattern, retaining AA gun and MG, only changing main artillery, all available 1/30-4/41:
- Vardar: had two 120/L45 and two 120 L/10 guns, 25 km/h
- Sava: had two 120/L35 (not 45) and one 120 L/10 guns, 24 km/h
- Morava: had two 120/L35, AAMG, 18 km/h.

There is one picture 23118 showing Romanian monitor of the same class, as Sava. I can provide pictures of all, if there is such need.

Michal

[zastava128]

Well I thought about the monitors, as well as small Adriatic patrol boats, but I think we're already going to give Don and Andy an awful lot to do...

Anyway, back to the artillery:

The 76.5mm guns were indeed labeled "80mm".

I've checked about the Royal Army. It used the following guns:

Divisional level

65mm French M.1906 mountain gun - unit 21 in the OOB
75mm French M.1897 field gun
75mm French M.1912 field gun
75mm Serb M.1907 field gun
75mm Austro-Hungarian Škoda M.15 mountain gun
75mm Czech Škoda M.28 mountain gun - unit 54 in the OOB
80mm Austro-Hungarian M.5/8 field gun
80mm Czech Škoda M.28 mountain gun - unit 133 in the OOB
100mm Austro-Hungarian M.14/M.16 howitzer (two very similar models) - unit 147 in the OOB
100mm Czech Škoda M.28 howitzer - unit 135 in the OOB
105mm French M.16 howitzer

Army level - there were no corps

105mm French Schneider M.13 long gun - unit 148 in the OOB
105mm M.15/26 (modified 104mm French M.15, range increased to 15.6km)
120mm French Schneider M.10/15 howitzer
150mm Austro-Hungarian Škoda M.14 howitzer
150mm Czech Škoda M.28 long gun
155mm French Schneider M.10/15 - unit 150 in the OOB

Anything else (various 150mm long guns, 150mm howitzers, 220mm guns, 305mm guns) was attached exclusively to the Supreme HQ.

Also, they did acquire 37mm Škoda AT guns in 1939.

Obviously there's no need to cram everything of the above in the OOB...

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by zastava128

75mm Czech Škoda M.28 mountain gun - unit 54 in the OOB
80mm Austro-Hungarian M.5/8 field gun
80mm Czech Škoda M.28 mountain gun - unit 133 in the OOB

Do you have any details, especially range and barrel length of 75 mm M.28? What bothers me, is a coincidence in designation with 80 mm gun, which was also a mountain gun, but with a barrel L/40 and a very decent range 13.1 km. According to Chamberlain, M.28 was manufactured in two versions: 76.5mm for Yugoslavia and 75mm for Romania, also unspecified variant was used in Czechoslovakia.
And another question is, if it was really used as infantry gun (directly supporting infantry). Unit 54 has a limited on-map range.

By the way, M.5/8 gun was Skoda as well, and also could be broken down and used as mountain gun.
According to Chamberlain, also more modern 80mm Skoda M.17 mountain gun was used (range 11.4km).

---
As an off-topic, since I can't send you a private message: do you know what camouflage was used on captured Somua tanks? I can only find a photo of a tank upgunned wih 6pdr, which shows only a flag on a turret, but no camouflage. Also, are there any photos of partisan Autoblinda or Sdkfz-222 with markings? - I'm asking for a sake of my colour pictures.

Regards
Michal

[zastava128]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Do you have any details, especially range and barrel length of 75 mm M.28? What bothers me, is a coincidence in designation with 80 mm gun, which was also a mountain gun, but with a barrel L/40 and a very decent range 13.1 km. According to Chamberlain, M.28 was manufactured in two versions: 76.5mm for Yugoslavia and 75mm for Romania, also unspecified variant was used in Czechoslovakia.
And another question is, if it was really used as infantry gun (directly supporting infantry). Unit 54 has a limited on-map range.

By the way, M.5/8 gun was Skoda as well, and also could be broken down and used as mountain gun.

To be honest, I'm not sure, artillery really isn't my forte. But you may be right - the book I used as the source (Aralica: Hrvatski ratnici kroz stoljeća/Croatian warriors through the centuries) does have quite a few typos/editing errors - it's quite possible the 80mm M.28 was really a field gun.

EDIT: found details for 75mm M.28: barrel length 1.34m L/18, range 8.7 km.

According to Chamberlain, also more modern 80mm Skoda M.17 mountain gun was used (range 11.4km).

I've checked again, Chamberlain is right, but it was used in very small numbers.

---
As an off-topic, since I can't send you a private message: do you know what camouflage was used on captured Somua tanks? I can only find a photo of a tank upgunned wih 6pdr, which shows only a flag on a turret, but no camouflage. Also, are there any photos of partisan Autoblinda or Sdkfz-222 with markings? - I'm asking for a sake of my colour pictures.

Regards
Michal

Here I can help you more: the Somuas used the same camo as they had in German service. I can't tell the exact colours, but probably something like this: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/somua.jpg
The only marking was a red star, replacing the Balkenkreuz.

Here's a photo of a captured AB41 (camo is described as "yellowish"): http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/5563/blinda2ajs7.jpg
The only marking was "Tenk bataljon" written in white, on the right side of the hull, just below the turret.

No photo of the Sdkfz 222 exists - as I've mentioned in the first post, they were only captured when the Germans surrendered, and it's not know if they were ever used. But as a general rule, the partisans did not paint over captured vehicles.

The 6pdr Somua was one of a kind vehicle by the way (the gun was taken from a destroyed AEC mk II).

[Pibwl]

001 FT-17 tank is too fast (in all OOBs) - speed 6 (it drove less than 8 km/h), but I assume, that it's in order to keep up with infantry in the game?

Maybe then 005 M.28 should be one point faster, to show, that it could drive 16 km/h? (now also 6). Interesting thing, that it's now cheaper, than FT-17, despite being canon-armed.

There were also used FT-17 with 37mm gun (lower photo at http://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/tanks/f...enault_m24.htm)

094 S-Id - it was known in Yugoslavia as T-32 (S-Id was Skoda's designation).
Armament should be 37mm Skoda A3 gun (weapon 013 from Czechoslovak oob), not 47 mm, and it carried 42 rounds.
MG should be renamed to vz.30.
Front and side armour was 12-22 mm (no specific info), so at least in front it should be strengthened to 2.
Speed was 41 km/h (now 15)
[data from Kliment/Francev "Czechoslovak Armored Fighting Vehicles 1918-1948" and a Russian Bronekollektsya 5/99]

Originally Posted by zastava128

Here I can help you more: the Somuas used the same camo as they had in German service. I can't tell the exact colours, but probably something like this: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/somua.jpg
The only marking was a red star, replacing the Balkenkreuz.

That's what I assumed, creating a picture (will be in a following pack )