Some TOE nitpicks and ideas

Ts4EVER · #1 April 22nd, 2012, 08:31 AM

1. I noticed that there are now some German units armed with the MKB42(H) assault rifle. It has a range of 6, compared to the range of 8 of the StG44 assault rifle. This seems strange, considering they use the same ammo and are virtually indistingiushable for the untrained eye.

I don't think these rifle are different in a way you can simulate on SP WW2s scale.

On a more nitpicky note, the first units to test these weapons were infanterie units in Army group north in april 1943. It seems weird to have them only in the hands of SS and PzGren.

2. All Finnish infantry use the Lahti lmg right through the war, while in reality these were mostly replaced by the Russian DP lmg during the continuation war. Especially by 1944 the DP outnumbered the Lahti in front line units.

3. The Tokarev SVT40 rifle was actually replaced in production by the Mosin Nagant during the war, yet ingame they even seem to become more common in 1945, with several new units becoming available using it and new AT grenades.
In terms of Russian equipment, the following weapons could be added to the toe for some more variety.

Fedorov Avtomat

This was one of the first assault rifles, ebing designed during WW1. It was used during the Finnish winter war by soviet ski troops. In gameplay terms it would probably be rated similar to the StG44, using the arisaka 6.5mm round in semi and full-auto fire.

Tokarev AVT40

Basically a full auto version of the SVT40 rifle. It was used in small numbers starting in 1943 to combat a lack of light machine guns in the Soviet army. You could have a stripped down infantry or conscript squad using it instead of an lmg, or possibly as an option for smg teams.

Rosollia · #2 April 22nd, 2012, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ts4EVER

2. All Finnish infantry use the Lahti lmg right through the war, while in reality these were mostly replaced by the Russian DP lmg during the continuation war. Especially by 1944 the DP outnumbered the Lahti in front line units.

Yes, you are correct.

Quote:

Finnish troops captured over 3,400 Degtjarev M/27 light machineguns during Winter War and during Continuation War (mostly during early part of it) additional some 5,000 more were captured. June of 1944 captured Degtjarev M/27 light machinegun already outnumbered Finnish domestic Lahti-Saloranta M/26 LMG by good 2 : 1 ratio, even Finnish spare-part production and maintenance procedures were organised for this weapon.
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/LMG1.htm#762PK27

By the way the Finnish OOB also has some units with the FM24/29 LMG, but this LMG does not appear to have been used by Finns or if it was it was in very small numbers. Maybe it has been confused with the weapon "099" Chauchat M1915 which was used early on in the Continuation War 1941?

Quote:

8 mm light machinegun M/15 Chauchat: Finnish use: France "donated" 5,000 during Winter War. They were not issued during Winter War (arrived in January-February of 1940), but during Continuation War some unfortunate Finnish units used them.
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/LMG2.htm

DRG · #3 April 22nd, 2012, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosollia

By the way the Finnish OOB also has some units with the FM24/29 LMG, but this LMG does not appear to have been used by Finns or if it was it was in very small numbers. Maybe it has been confused with the weapon "099" Chauchat M1915 which was used early on in the Continuation War 1941?

Well..... lets look at it this way.

The FM24/29 has been in the OOB's for AT LEAST a decade and the Chauchat was added a year or two later. This OOB has had so many revisions by various Finns I've lost count and given how few units actually use it and how little different it is from any LMG that would replace it and consider I DO have a source that says it was issued in limited numbers ( 100 weapons ----Finland at War 1939-45 By Philip Jowett, Brent Snodgrass ) I'm just going to leave it alone.

Don

DRG · #4 April 22nd, 2012, 01:33 PM

Yes there are now 2 units armed with the MKB42(H) assault rifle.

The weapon was added sometime between 2002 and 2004 and at unused since that time but this year it was applied to two units. I honestly cannot recall adding them but given the photos are new for this last release, I guess I did ( it was a very busy year...)and didn't check that the specs were correct for that cartridge. It's now been corrected.

I am well aware of the difference between the two weapons. I own an MP.43.

There are a lot of myths associated with these weapons. The best one is that is was used by Kampfgruppe Scherer to fight it's way out of the Kholm Pocket in Feb 1942 which would be impossible. My particular "Bible" is George Markams 'Guns of the Reich' who states the first full field test was made in the "Spring of 1943" by SS Division "Wiking". By mid 1943 approx. 8,000 had been delivered to various units. Right now I'm not sure where the 10/42 start date came from but 4/43 would be better. Although "first full field trial" does not mean there weren't limited issues made before that but as I have stated many times before, sources do not agree on the speed of a Tiger 1 so when a test rifle was issued and to who is certainly open to "interpretation"

The other "nitpicky" items have been noted and will be looked at next time we start OOB work again

Don

Ts4EVER · #5 April 22nd, 2012, 01:44 PM

-First 1500 MKb42(H) sent late April 1943 for testing in six divisions from (HGr. Nord):

1. Inf.Div.
11. Inf.Div.
21.Inf.Div.
93.Inf.Div.
212 Inf.Div.
18 Inf.Div.(mot)

This according to "Sutrmgewehr" bei Hans Dieter Handrich. However considering pictural evidence at least some must have been delivered to SS units (including SS Fallschirmjägers)

DRG · #6 April 22nd, 2012, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ts4EVER

-considering pictural evidence at least some must have been delivered to SS units (including SS Fallschirmjägers)

I have written "evidence" that they were tested by SS units as well that spring and it is quite possible they could have made their way into the hands of SS paras. However, all that particular photo "proves" is that a Para is carrying a MKb42(H) and is standing beside an SS registered vehicle.

Can we end this particular nitpicking session in the knowledge that the start dates have been advanced to April 1943 and that a regular Infantry unit now has one and that all are now radio code RARE ??

Don

Ts4EVER · #7 April 22nd, 2012, 03:12 PM

Yeah, calm down. I wasn't trying to critizise, I just thought you might find the other info and picture interesting.

DRG · #8 April 22nd, 2012, 03:40 PM

Given there were no SS para units at that time if that is indeed an SS para the photo was taken in 1944 but it is higly unlikly, but not impossible, for that weapon to have been issued to anyone in that unit at that time.

Don

Ts4EVER · #9 April 22nd, 2012, 03:55 PM

I have seen the pic being labelled as SS Fallschirmjäger Bataiilon 500. If that is true, I don't know.

Rosollia · #10 April 22nd, 2012, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG

I DO have a source that says it was issued in limited numbers ( 100 weapons ----Finland at War 1939-45 By Philip Jowett, Brent Snodgrass ) I'm just going to leave it alone.

You are right it read in that site I quoted from earlier also.

Quote:

- 7,5 mm light machinegun M/24-29 Chatellerault (Fusil Mitrailleur mle 1924/29): This light machinegun was the weapon that the French introduced to replace Chauchat M/15. It was chambered for new French standard military cartridge 7,5 mm x 54. During Winter War France donated 100 M/24-29 light machineguns, which arrived too late to see any action in that war. Not that they would have seen any battle use with the Finnish military later either - during Continuation War they were issued to home front troops. Some 60 were wrecked in 1944, the remaining ones were sold to Interarmco in 1960.