AI Air Defense

[Suhiir]

I'd like to very humbly suggest that perhaps the pick-lists might possibly be reconsidered.

I thought I'd try a player vs AI battle (USMC vs Iran 2/2018).
Players are well use to the fact that the AI always purchases more air defense then would be normal (or reasonable) for a battalion/brigade size battle.

AI OOB:
Apx. 2 tank companies (various types in platoon size formations)
Apx. 2 mech infantry battalions
Apx 1 artillery regiment (various battery types)

3 x MIM 23B HAWK
2 x Pantsy1-S1
6 x SA-6 Gainful
12 x Igla-1 MPAD
4 x Type 86/88 SPAA
2 x Cobra AA

In my opinion this is perhaps a bit "much".

[Wdll]

You do? Apart from the manpads which I find almost useless in most cases, I think it is a good number of units, especially against USA or any other high tech country.

[DRG]

OK..... add up what all that costs then tell me how many infantry units the AI would buy if it only bought half as many anti air assets ( becasue that's what it will do ) and if the AI didn't buy twice as many air assets as you seem to think it should would it just make it easier for your air assets to attack and destroy ground targets and isn't that really what the complaint is about ??



Don

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by DRG

OK..... add up what all that costs then tell me how many infantry units the AI would buy if it only bought half as many anti air assets ( becasue that's what it will do ) and if the AI didn't buy twice as many air assets as you seem to think it should would it just make it easier for your air assets to attack and destroy ground targets and isn't that really what the complaint is about ??

Don

Granted the AI will need to spend the points elsewhere, more infantry, armor, or (god forbid) artillery.

?????
"easier for your air assets to attack and destroy ground targets"
?????

Don't you mean possible?
As is, AI air defense makes aircraft/helos pretty much a total waste of points.

On average as the US player you're given the option to purchase 2 to 4 airstrikes per battle (US aircraft cost about the same as an artillery battery ... which can't get shot down, is more accurate, and has more ammo).
Given this level of air defense none ... NONE ... of those 4 to 8 aircraft survive long enough to make a single airstrike.

Since apparently I'm the only person that thinks aircraft should be viable vs the AI (not just players that forget to buy AD) I'll quit beating this dead horse.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well I'm going to offer my less than "two cents" here, being strictly an AI player, the anti-air systems do seem high at times, however, I agree that if I was the AI fighting the U.S. I would even throw out the "kitchen sink" too get as much AA in the field as possible. Even when I play the U.S. or some other comparable country against even a lesser opponent I always have AA units by my 4th or 5th turn at the latest to counter any possible air threat that seem to generally be experienced units when they do show up with all that means against my units. In the case of Iran they certainly have plenty of AA to use, see the ref below. It would seem that the better question is, is the AI intuitive in it's equipment selection depending on who it's playing against country wise or is it just random selection? As to the man-pad issue I'll send my condolences along to the families of the air crews I've lost to the AI units with them, you cannot discount the experience level even when playing the AI and the level of difficulty you're set up to play the game in, these factors seem to get forgotten about by many who play th game or just plane under estimate the AI.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/iran_..._pictures.html


Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

As a test I ran 7 aircraft vs the above air defense a total of 10 times, the results were:

10 x 7 aircraft = 70 aircraft

41 shot down prior to attack
11 shot down after attack
Of these 11 seven (7) only made gun attacks and did not drop bombs
16 damaged so no chance of a second run
Of these 16 eleven (11) only made gun attacks and did not drop bombs
2 undamaged (one dropped bombs)

Since a 74% shootdown, 23% damaged, 3% undamaged; with a total of 10 out of 70 (14%) successful air strikes and the 2 aircraft (3%) capable of a second sortie apparently considered reasonable in WinSPMBT I have nothing further to say.

[Skirmisher]

You may want to try having someone "set up" the AI units using a scenario in order to get better composed battles. That way you just bypass AI picklists all together.

You could give some basic guidlines for various unit usage.

Normally,If I were setting up AI AA I would use alot for this reason,human players "bleed off" AA fire,then take advantage of it.
So with lots of AA,they are unable to do that.

[Wdll]

Is this a joke?
70 aircraft of what type? What stats?

I can use B-2s and roam above the battlefield for as long as I want to.
If you use A-10s or F-16s and expect to come out of it clean, then LOL.

Focus on high EW planes and make sure you have plenty of WW sorties before you send in your strike/bombers.
If you don't know how to use planes, just say it, but the air defences are hardly overpowering. Start with a round of artillery at points that you expect the enemy might have his best SAMs, then follow it with either recon planes or WW planes to deal with the SAMs. Then bomb with artillery any SAMs detected but not dealt with. Then WW again, then artillery and when you think it is safe, then send in the strike planes.
If you only have 2-4 sorties, then forget the above. Either focus on stealth aircraft or just don't buy any planes. The best thing about not buying any planes while the enemy has bought plenty of air defense units is that if you don't buy any planes, he wasted all those points.
And seriously, 2 sorties = 0 if the enemy has air defenses. Unless of course you get something like the B-2 or even F-22.

Hell, if the use of Apaches or other recon helos at long range so that the enemy use its missiles to them, then strike them with artillery. Then use your 2-4 strike bombers.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Wdll

Is this a joke?
70 aircraft of what type? What stats?

1 x EF-35B Ferret SEAD EW=11
4 x F-35B Lightning II Fighter-Bomber EW=8
2 x F-35B Lightning II COIN EW=8

Originally Posted by Wdll

If you don't know how to use planes, just say it, but the air defences are hardly overpowering.

You don't call:
3 x MIM 23B HAWK
2 x Pantsy1-S1
6 x SA-6 Gainful
12 x Igla-1 MPAD
4 x Type 86/88 SPAA
2 x Cobra AA
overpowering?

What is????

Find me a real brigade size task force anywhere in the world with this much air defense and I'll never say another word on this subject.

Originally Posted by Wdll

If you only have 2-4 sorties, then forget the above. Either focus on stealth aircraft or just don't buy any planes.

I totally agree ... and this is EXACTLY my point.

[Wdll]

1 x EF-35B Ferret SEAD EW=11
4 x F-35B Lightning II Fighter-Bomber EW=8
2 x F-35B Lightning II COIN EW=8

And you still failed? Weird. Perhaps just bad lack. Then again I don't trust F-35, in game or in real life. It feels like a black hole sucking money with doubtful usage against anyone with more than one Radar.

You don't call:
3 x MIM 23B HAWK
2 x Pantsy1-S1
6 x SA-6 Gainful
12 x Igla-1 MPAD
4 x Type 86/88 SPAA
2 x Cobra AA
overpowering?

What is????

I would probably not buy the Igla or the AA guns, but the rest are fine when it knows you will probably use your superior airforce. Don't forget that each point spent on that is a point not spent on land forces.

I totally agree ... and this is EXACTLY my point.

What is your point? That when the enemy has strong air defense and you can only send a couple of planes at a time, you have a good chance of failing? Doh!

Or that the AI simply uses so many points in air defense as to not let you do whatever you want over the skies? If yes, then basically it does the smart thing since anything less would let you(as the player) to do whatever you want.

Simple solution I mentioned earlier. Either use good stealth force or more planes. If you can't, then don't use them at all. It makes sense.

Use them when it makes sense. Just because you can use airforce it doesn't mean you should or that it will work.
I am quite good at using planes by now and 90% of the time I find myself in trouble is when I decide taking a risk, ie too few planes.
I have won battles and campaigns, against humans just using the airforce, and I have lost air fleets in a couple of turns due to bad choices. It's all part of the game/battle.