Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC

[Finalgenesis]

I've noticed that I've only used awake/sleeping rainbow mage (Usually humans, sometimes master lich/ ghost king) and never SCs. I value the magic diversity, crafting flexibility, summoning options and the immense gem income from site searchs from a rainbow much too highly to ever use anything but a rainbow. Spells like contact naiad, stream from hades, ether lord, draconians, troll court...etc are just amazing mid-late game for good diversification.

It seems that most SC require either some items or Dom 9-10 to help out (with exception to Gorgon SC maybe), and I can't seem to shell out the points to do that. It seems to be a waste to dump so much points into a SC who gets weaker in enemy dom, whereas a rainbow can give you a huge exponential boost to gem income and summon multiple thug/SC chasis later on in addition to mad crafting and summoning. I have a checklist of summons and artifacts I HAVE to have to sleep at night (dwarf hammer, boots of quickness, boots of flight...etc).

Of course I've never used SC pretenders before, and as I understand it, it is really for is early game expansion and early-mid province defense? Any players who use SC pretender a lot can enlighten me why anyone would use SC over rainbow generally? (I can see SC for certain nations needing a boost to early expansion or heavy bless, but not general usage)

[Squirrelloid]

Cyclops is the pretender that comes to mind which can SC early and doesn't need high dominion.

Preference is based on the nation I'm playing and what it needs. Some nations need rainbows. Some need SCs. Some need a bless chassis. Some need a focused forger. Some just need something cheap so they can take great scales. Some need a compromise between two of the above. Some can afford to do something else entirely (Lord of the Gates comes to mind).

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Cyclops is the pretender that comes to mind which can SC early and doesn't need high dominion.

Hhhhmmmm, high dominion on a Cyclops is almost mandatory if you want him to be any use as an early SC (first year). If you try taking Indy's solo with a naked Cyclops without Awe then you'll almost instantly get a dead Cyclops. Even with a Const 0 shield+sword it's no certainty

But then I know you know this already Squirrelloid, which makes your comment seem even weirder to me

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Calahan

Hhhhmmmm, high dominion on a Cyclops is almost mandatory if you want him to be any use as an early SC (first year). If you try taking Indy's solo with a naked Cyclops without Awe then you'll almost instantly get a dead Cyclops. Even with a Const 0 shield+sword it's no certainty

But then I know you know this already Squirrelloid, which makes your comment seem even weirder to me

E9 gives him enough protection he can expand against a lot of things. I wouldn't go running into any HC...

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

E9 gives him enough protection he can expand against a lot of things. I wouldn't go running into any HC...

Protection can be 20 or 30, doesn't matter that much as with just average defence and no Awe to prevent the attacks, the RNG will ensure enough hits get through to ruin your day. It's not all about actually losing the Cyclops, as it only takes one or two injuries for it to be sidelined.

IIRC, someone ran tests a while back with protection 40, and those showed that the protection mechanics are a bit bugged at the higher levels (as in hits get through when they shouldn't). This may have been fixed in recent patches, but I doubt it somehow.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Calahan

Protection can be 20 or 30, doesn't matter that much as with just average defence and no Awe to prevent the attacks, the RNG will ensure enough hits get through to ruin your day. It's not all about actually losing the Cyclops, as it only takes one or two injuries for it to be sidelined.

IIRC, someone ran tests a while back with protection 40, and those showed that the protection mechanics are a bit bugged at the higher levels (as in hits get through when they shouldn't). This may have been fixed in recent patches, but I doubt it somehow.

I know protection interacts weirdly with damage, because the RNG is bugged. But try it before you say it doesn't work.

An E9 cyclops has 29 protection. He'll also average more than 100hp with dominion bonus. With no gear he can handle non-archer infantry. Figure you expand turn 2, move home turn 3, and that gives you time to forge a weapon and a shield to equip him for expanding again on turn 4 and onwards. Assuming you don't run into something egregious like someone with a skull talisman, you'll expand perfectly fine.

I gained 1 affliction (-4 str, oh noes) in year 1, and that was just random bad luck. I expanded on turns 2, 4-11. I used an enchanted shield and sword because I grabbed an astral power at random. I made sure to target provinces that were only standard infantry with or without archers OR tribal groups. (No barbarians, no heavy cavalry, light cavalry would probably be ok). Actually, the parry 7 on enchanted shield is pretty respectable, not sure how much of a difference that made against archers.

Once you get Conj3, you're also net-neutral on fatigue after SEP, which makes you immune to critical hits. You should research it sometime in year 1.

I mean, would you rather have awe? Sure. But the Cyclops *can* go without.

[Gandalf Parker]

You dont list bless as a separate option? Is that supposed to be in Other?

[rdonj]

In SP I would be very hard-pressed to take an SC pretender. You're right, usually the magic diversity and gem income are much better. And even on impossible difficulty, it's quite possible for most nations to compete effectively with the AI without an awake SC. In my opinion those are more useful for competitive MP games, where provinces are at a minimum and rush deterrent may be more valuable than long term diversity and power, especially if that SC allows you to make a quick land grab on an opponent's territory.

Personally though I dislike awake SCs for much the same reasons you do, and I would never take one unless with a nation that I just didn't feel needed anything else, or was so weak early game that I had no other choice (i.e. the alugra mod in SP, which I've finally given up on trying to make work without one).

[Finalgenesis]

Originally Posted by rdonj

In my opinion those are more useful for competitive MP games, where provinces are at a minimum and rush deterrent may be more valuable than long term diversity and power, especially if that SC allows you to make a quick land grab on an opponent's territory.

I think I can see this, a SC pretender on Turn 12 when EA Mictlan or Niflehiem is breathing on me be the difference between win or defeat in MP.

For the non-SC pretender, one huge bonus I just couldn't get over is the gem income from site search. Even when using awake rainbow vs sleepy rainbow I tend to amass a lot more misc. gems, which fuels my summon / forging mid-game in a big way. Its like a free 90% akashic record (minus holy and whatever path you skipped) every other turn starting on Turn 1. awake rainbow can have 8-9 sites for you inside of a year by T1 minimum, or if you Really need certain spells to do early research boost.

assuming you get 8 sites and each generate 1 gem to be conservative in Yr1. that can give you a bonus 96 gems from T12-T24, not counting those you get in T1-T12. The income over say 4 years snowballs like crazy just from your Y1 site find alone. Granted at some point your pretender stays home to craft and summon things only it can do, but those 1yr+ of free acashic record is huge. Even when it's home it tend to have a backlog of key summons / craft to occupy it until the end of days.

That doesn't even include the times when I found rare sites that give me -20% conj / Thau / free castles / other amazing bonuses that changed the game for me.

I won't even go into the crafting goodness they do for me, as they are sometimes my sole crafter of critical gear before it is also the one to summon others to do it for her (eg. dwarf hammer until i summon troll, boots of flight.... which I usually can't get anyone else to craft for me until very late in the game with fairy queen, cross-path forge like vine bracelet / crystal coin.etc)

Trading all that for a single SC which I can summon up multiple lesser versions of late game just pains me But I can see this in MP where a SC early game helps deter and expand.

[Finalgenesis]

Ah I assumed a sleeping/imprisoned SC or rainbow includes blessing. Something like:

Awake SC : Early expansion / maybe light blessing / minor diversify magic
Sleepy SC : Heavy blessing / minor diversify magic
Awake Rainbow : Early site search / research / light blessing / crafting
Sleepy Rainbow : Site search / Hv blessing / crafting

I meant the choice to be all inclusive of anything using the above 4 pretender choice, Others would be immobile pretender or anything else.

Indeed I find that even for bless nations (EA Mictlan) I use rainbow pretender to throw them on. I just find that most guide I read uses a SC pretender with 2-4 paths focus (I've maybe read one or two guide which uses a heavy rainbow pretender), whereas I usually go 4-7 paths for every nation.