CM arty modeling

[Imp]

Following a post by DRG have startred this to see if anyone has a better way of modeling its effects.
No expert on as only looked briefly at in the past & obviosly diffrent types will vary slightly but how do you model its effect any better?
2 Types I think cluster which produces a cloud of hundreds of explosives. Smart munitions seek target & think level of airburst can be set as launched. Devastating to all in area including soft targets, large multidirectional shockwaves. The other type are really armour killers like the Bonus shell which fires 2 seekers at about 2000m above target area per shell. These probably have no effect whatsoever on other units in the area as it ignores them so perhaps HE kill of zero.
As regards area of effect clusters are nasty Bonus each penetrator scans an area of 32,000m square, over 3 hexes across in game terms, probably closer to 4 by time allow for slight dispersal. So one shell should target 2 armoured vehicles in that area, 3 shells slightly stagered a bit more area & 6 vehicles targeted.
Videos of test fires (Boffors I think) cleary show the penetrator firing at targets well off centre like 40 degrees /
So perhaps as said Gun fired should have no or very low HE kill component while rockets like MLRS stay as are but I have not looked at the subject thouroughly.

[Marcello]

Actually the most common type is still the non guided variety.
Typically a small submunition with a HEAT charge capable of penetrating four inches or so of armor and a pre set fragmentation pattern for soft target, with a 155mm artillery round carrying several tens of them.
Such munition rely on numbers to achieve coverage and lethality, with the HEAT warheads penetrating the roofs of most
AFVs out there (and the engine decks of those few with reinforced top armor) while the storm of fragments kills anyone exposed.
A lot of specialized HE submunitions also exist, as antiarmor capability is both expensive and not always necessary.

[Imp]

Like I said no expert & I am happy with it in game even if its painfull if get caught by a strike but thats not as easy as it used to be due to LOS being needed for rapid adjustment.

[Suhiir]

As I said elsewhere, I have zero issues with CM type munitions (or FAE rocket barrages) getting multiple kills, thats the whole point of CM munitions after all!

I am however curious about how large an area CM currently effect in-game.
It's apparently more then just the target and adjacent hex (at leas in some cases) as I've seen them effect stuff two hexes from the target hex. I'm wondering if that might be too large a radius for something like an artillery round or maybe a bomb. Now for a CM MLRS (or similar) to blow up stuff in a half km radius is "reasonable" given the point it's a barrage of 10-20+ (generally large) rockets.

[Imp]

I'm wondering if that might be too large a radius for something like an artillery round or maybe a bomb. Now for a CM MLRS (or similar) to blow up stuff in a half km radius is "reasonable" given the point it's a barrage of 10-20+ (generally large) rockets

I think its a case of game mechanics to stand a reasonable chance of killing adjacent also needs the offchance of destroying 1 hex further out. More often than not they are fine if a bit shaken also some bombs have pretty large coverage.

[Marcello]

As a further food for thought on BONUS/SADARM types, keep in mind that these are going to be very limited issue weapons. SADARM production was terminated after few hundreds rounds; only 300 were issued for the iraqi campaign and less than half of that were actually used, about the 0.7% of the rounds fired by the units equipped with them.
High cost, lack of worthwhile enemy AFVs in the current campaigns, and high demand for Excalibur type unitary rounds better suited for engaging most common targets mean they are not going to mass produced in serious numbers.
Throw in the coming budget crunches and you see you won't have to to worry too much about how they perform

[Suhiir]

The "real" frequency of any weapon/equipment system use VS how often players buy/use them is always an issue in any game. The AI can be "forced" to buy them less often via the X2, X0, X1, X3 radio codes. But most players will buy what looks good or what they want. Some (most?) do so out of ignorance (they have no clue how (un)common anything is), many just like playing with the best toys, and others just plain don't care about such things and only want to win their battles so pick whatever allows them to do so.

All that said all we can do is try to model any equipment/weapon as best we can keeping in mind it's "real" effects, it's "game" effects, and it's "game balance" effects.

Talk about walking a greased high wire!

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

The "real" frequency of any weapon/equipment system use VS how often players buy/use them is always an issue in any game. The AI can be "forced" to buy them less often via the X2, X0, X1, X3 radio codes. But most players will buy what looks good or what they want. Some (most?) do so out of ignorance (they have no clue how (un)common anything is), many just like playing with the best toys, and others just plain don't care about such things and only want to win their battles so pick whatever allows them to do so.

All that said all we can do is try to model any equipment/weapon as best we can keeping in mind it's "real" effects, it's "game" effects, and it's "game balance" effects.

Talk about walking a greased high wire!

What I was trying to get across is that they are a niche weapon at best for the time being (and the 2010-2020 timeframe in all likelyhood) and since they would be hard to differentiate from conventional cluster ammo in terms of game mechanics anyway it is not very cost effective to do so, say by using scarce weapon slots for example. The game is inhrerently inflexible when it comes to handling different types of ammunition for a given weapon.

[Wdll]

I would be willing to accept continuing using CM artillery if each "shot" from such hit only the units in the hex it hit. If you turn fast artillery OFF and watch how it fires and what it hits, it is getting to be way too...unrealistic?

Every X is a hex that one shot from such artillery will kill or heavily damage enemy MBTs Y is the actual hex the artillery landed on.

XXXXX
XXXXX
XXYXX
XXXXX
XXXXX

Since every hex is 50 meters that means that a single shot of CM artillery can and will destroy MBTs (and other of course) units 125 meters in all directions. It's just insane.
IMO the area of effect/kill for CM artillery should be minimised to just the hex it hits which is 50 meters! It seems that where a regular HE shell could kill from the blast someone troops or affect their morale, 125-150m away from where it fell, the CM artillery gets the same bonus in destroying armoured targets. I can understand this might be hardcoded or something, but it just doesn't feel right.
It's one thing if several "shots" hit nearby hexes, but for one "shot" (yes I know they are submunitions but they do not spread into such a huge area!)
Remember, these are not huge bombs dropped from bombers.

[Imp]

I have just tested this quicky save included & cant see a problem look at the results

Arty USA Paladin vs Challenger One
Fired 4 Paladins one each at tank in centre of group.
All Paladins used 0.5 so only one shell.

Results using one shell only
In target hex 2 destroyed 2 immobile.
2 Hexes away 1 out of 10 immobile
3 Hexes away no effect.
So 4 shells gave 2 kill & 3 immobile results.

Game saved here.

If carry on & hit at 0.0 so 4 shells the carnage is far worse from watching.
Tanks in target or adjacent hex stand a good chance of being damaged or destroyed.
Those 2 hexes away stand a very good chance of nothing or minor suppresion.

Obvious conclusion keep them 2 hexes apart & wont do much damage, to me this makes it a deterent forcing you to keep dispersed therefore making combat maneuveres harder.
Yes it covers an area of 5 hexes across when it should really be 4 & a bit but the chances are will be unscathed in outer hexes.

If you are talking MLRS first result I found on You Tube for TOS-1 as you mentioned it earlier http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJOEtSMhdc
As you can see quite a large area I would say the problem is more people use them far more often than they really would be due to cost etc. But thats true of most things from best IFVs MBTs attack helos planes etc.