Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don

[Suhiir]

Andy/Don, if you know something off the tops of your heads I'd appreciate it.
Do NOT waste time digging thru the game code for "100% accurate" answers.
I'll be more then happy with a "best guess".
Thanks!

According to the MBT Game Guide:

UnitClass 45 = Sniper

"Size 0 gives extra hide and extra difficult to hit abilities. Extra inbuilt accuracy."

It's clear that being size 0 makes a unit harder to spot and hit.
But, the description also says "Extra inbuilt accuracy".

I'm thinking (brainstorming, whatever) that one might possibly classify a unit such as a SEAL 2-man scout team as a sniper thus allowing this "elite" type of unit to hit more often then the weapon tab data normally allows.
Of course, I'll also increase the "experience" and "morale" ratings of SEAL formations in the formations tab.

Questions are:
1) How significant is the accuracy increase for a sniper class unit? Would the combination of this plus the "experience" and "morale" rating increase create a "super unit"?

2) The USMC added a "Designated Marksman" to each infantry squad in 2001. Generally armed with a M-21 (the USMC uses the bolt action M-40 as it's "real sniper" weapon) which I've added to the OOB (13 range, 20 accuracy). By game conventions should a "designated marksman" be classified as a "sniper" unit or merely a size 0 "infantry" unit?


UnitClass 56 = Ammo Carrier

AMMO CANISTER
"Crew is 1 and speed must be 0, supplies small ammo only (to WH size 3), low supply points per move (20 ammo points). Range 1 hex."

AMMO DUMP
"6 or more men, speed must be 0, loadcost>49, an ammo dump supplies at lower rate (~1/2 rate) at 2 hexes range, full rate at 1 or less, has more supply per move(60 ammo points)."

"Anything else is a normal ammo truck, 40 ammo supply points per move. Range 1 hex."

I'm trying to figure out how WinSPMBT determines which type of ammo resupply ability it grants a unit.

1) That is to say, is the fact that an ammo canister is BOTH "crew 1 and speed 0" what gives it "supplies small ammo only (to WH size 3), low supply points per move (20 ammo points). Range 1 hex."?

2) If a unit had a crew of 2 OR a speed greater then 0 would it be classified as an "ammo truck"?

3) Is the fact that an ammo dump is "6 or more men, speed must be 0, loadcost>49" what gives it it's abilities? Would a 6 crew, speed 15, loadcost>49 be classified as an "ammo truck" because it's mobile or an "ammo dump"? (Not that I have any intention of creating a mobile ammo dump, just trying to understand how the game classifies things).

[Mobhack]

1) the sniper class has added abilities over a size 0 unit.

Marksman is already seen in various oobs - they have a regular bolt or assault rifle, and not the sniper rifle. Since the stats are not the same (range + accuracy) , the Cost Calc knows to chop a few points off since it is a sniper without a sniper rifle.

Dedicated marksmen are usually done by adding a sniper rifle line in one of the sections. See UK OOB support sections post 90s.

2) The determination ammo dumps/supply cannisters etc are all done via code, as explained in the GG. Don't mess about with these defaults or you will get unexpected results. (Usually it will think they are a truck - all ammo carriers are vehicles, and there is special code which determines if the thing is a cannister and so avoids the usual 2XX load cost for vehicles so you can sling it in a land rover).

Andy

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

1) the sniper class has added abilities over a size 0 unit.

Marksman is already seen in various oobs - they have a regular bolt or assault rifle, and not the sniper rifle. Since the stats are not the same (range + accuracy) , the Cost Calc knows to chop a few points off since it is a sniper without a sniper rifle.

Dedicated marksmen are usually done by adding a sniper rifle line in one of the sections. See UK OOB support sections post 90s.

2) The determination ammo dumps/supply cannisters etc are all done via code, as explained in the GG. Don't mess about with these defaults or you will get unexpected results. (Usually it will think they are a truck - all ammo carriers are vehicles, and there is special code which determines if the thing is a cannister and so avoids the usual 2XX load cost for vehicles so you can sling it in a land rover).

Andy

Kewl, so I can use one of the alternate sniper unit numbers for the marksman. I had just set them up as size 0, 1-man, infantry type units.

And thanks for the clairification on the "ammo cannister".

How about the "ammo dump"? Is it that it's a 6 crew, 0 speed unit that makes it act as a dump rather then an immobile truck?


Actually thatguy96 the USMC snipers ARE scouts these days. Why they're now called Scout/Snipers


Normally the "sniper" carries an M-40 (or M-82) and the "spotter" an M-21.
Commonly however you'll see the "sniper" carry an M-82 and the "spotter" an M-40 for use when a BFG isn't needed.

To the best of my knowledge "real" Scout/Sniper teams never carried the M16/M203 regularly.
HOWEVER !
As with many "special" units those guys can (and do) carry pretty much anything they want!

I get around the problem of having both men in a 2-man sniper team firing by altering the weapon data on the sniper rifle from an HE Kill of 2 to 1. So that way both guys firing won't produce more then 2 kills per shot.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

How about the "ammo dump"? Is it that it's a 6 crew, 0 speed unit that makes it act as a dump rather then an immobile truck?

if men > 5

&& speed = 0

&& loadcost > 49

isdump = TRUE;

Don

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by DRG

if men > 5

&& speed = 0

&& loadcost > 49

isdump = TRUE;

Don

Remind me IOU a beer next time I see you

[thatguy96]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Actually thatguy96 the USMC snipers ARE scouts these days. Why they're now called Scout/Snipers

Never said they weren't. Makes perfect sense that the spotter's weapon would be a more capable rifle. The HEK idea makes good sense too if you're not planning on having single man sniper units.

[Marek_Tucan]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

To the best of my knowledge "real" Scout/Sniper teams never carried the M16/M203 regularly.

AFAIR (too lazy to dig into FMs now) the SBCT sniper teams are supposed to have:
-Sniper with M24
-Spotter with M4
-Grenadier with M4/M203

Some other "sniper" thoughts (some totally insane, some less so, you be the judge) for those who want to mod them:

-if you want to distinguish between "Marksmen" and "snipers", get the marksmen to separate class without sniper bonus (say mech support squad or whatever). If you want to save space in OOB, you may also get all snipers as "Para sniper" - they will cost a tad more due to para qualification but then Snipers are expensive anyway and you'll need only one set of snipers.
-If you want a say two-man sniper team with just 1 sniper rifle... You can change the rifle to class 2 and leave it as primary. Thus there would be only one gun fired while keeping the advantage of primary weapon and more people.
-another idea: for suppression, give the sniper rifle a larger warhead (4) while leaving kill on low - after all sniper's main effect is suppressing the enemy (in conventional warfare anyway).

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

AFAIR (too lazy to dig into FMs now) the SBCT sniper teams are supposed to have:
-Sniper with M24
-Spotter with M4
-Grenadier with M4/M203

Some other "sniper" thoughts (some totally insane, some less so, you be the judge) for those who want to mod them:

-if you want to distinguish between "Marksmen" and "snipers", get the marksmen to separate class without sniper bonus (say mech support squad or whatever). If you want to save space in OOB, you may also get all snipers as "Para sniper" - they will cost a tad more due to para qualification but then Snipers are expensive anyway and you'll need only one set of snipers.
-If you want a say two-man sniper team with just 1 sniper rifle... You can change the rifle to class 2 and leave it as primary. Thus there would be only one gun fired while keeping the advantage of primary weapon and more people.
-another idea: for suppression, give the sniper rifle a larger warhead (4) while leaving kill on low - after all sniper's main effect is suppressing the enemy (in conventional warfare anyway).

I presume you're talking about the US Army.
The USMC has never used the M-24 as a primary sniper weapon.
Also they're 2-man teams not 3.

I originally did have the "marksmen" set as size 0, 1-man, infantry class units with a marksman (20 acc, 13 range) rifle rather then a standard sniper rifle (which I've changed to 18 range - and will no doubt get a LOT of "comments" on, but we'll save that for another day). But the replies here have made me rethink and classify then as sniper class units, still with the less capable marksman rifle tho.

Your other suggestions are certainly worth kicking around.

[Mobhack]

Remember - the sniper class gets some benefits when in cover or dug in against direct fire, that infantry do not get (unless being targeted by another sniper, or an H/MMG team). And the sniper is better than regular infantry for shooting grunts when they are dug in/in a trench at > 100 yds.

The AI also knows to hold back sniper classes a little bit to do ranged shooting stuff - if given some 1 man size 0 "pseudo sniper" grunts, it will try to close with them like normal infantry, trying for a (brief) bayonet fight.

So replacing your marksman type with an ordinary infantry class (even if size 0 and 1 man) will have possibly unexpected side effects, though it will be cheaper. (The CC adds extra cost to the sniper classes because of their innate abilities).

Andy

[thatguy96]

I'm thinking (brainstorming, whatever) that one might possibly classify a unit such as a SEAL 2-man scout team as a sniper thus allowing this "elite" type of unit to hit more often then the weapon tab data normally allows.

The only issue with this is that the code treats the weapon in slot 1 as being issued to every member of the "squad." So you'd have it essentially treat the 2-man unit as having 2 M40s. From what I've been led to believe, the second person is usually an observer, in the USMC case armed with an M16A4 and M203 grenade launcher. Has this changed? I realize there's no reason to assume that this is still correct.

I have often wondered about whether it might be possible to put pistol in slot one and the sniper rifle in slot 2 (or maybe even slot 4) and get the correct result.