Unsupported tanks behind enemy lines

[Lt. Ketch]

Hi, everybody. My name is Ketch. (all choras, "Hi, Ketch") And I send my tanks behind enemy lines unsupported. (lose it, break down and start sobbing like a new born babe that just realized it was left on a doorstop.)

In my current campaign I've already lost a couple of AFVs to the AAA and ATGs that always haunt the rear areas. I'm getting better at not sending my tanks to uncertain death, but my infantry always gets left behind and if I load them up, (whether on tanks, trucks or HT) there ride gets blown out from under them and they go running for the hills so I lose more men AND the AFV. I just tried taking a sniper with me for support (they can hide better, scout things out, etc) but he got mowed down by a couple of MMGs. While I can wait a few turns to get the objectives at the back of the map, I would really like to be able to flank the forward elements and come at them from behind, not to mention raid the artilary park that keeps on routeing my troops.

I guess that my biggest question is, how do you get it to work and are there any perferred ways to get support for those units that you want to send through the enemy's rear areas?

(FYI - I generally play on 80X80 map with a battallion sized fource as it allows me room enough to flank the enemy, but not so much that I am freaking out about leaving too many holes in my line.)

[Imp]

Mr Ketch Sir you like to live on the edge. The question you should be asking yourself is could the AI do it to you without loss? The AI to tries to stop you doing it but its not a goal to aim for till part way into the battle & taking troops with you is important as they see the guns a lot better. If the guns are capable of destroying your armour creating a corridor with smoke can help restrict the area & let troops run up. Also once troops up as far as possible they ac drop smoke to protect any vehicles. Patience is the key but sometimes taking slight losses to get behind a force can be worth it as destruction can be dealt quiclkly as they run into your arms. Your sniper cant hide better if he unloads insight of the enemy so drop smoke just in front of where he gets out. MBT with TI good ATGMs & fair ranged RPGs this can be a tricky thing to pull off.
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[RERomine]

My best suggestion is to dedicate some sort of mounted recon and support to your flanking elements. The AI will always have some sort of AT or AA guns in the rear and infantry if it's a delay or defend. Odds are, you won't spot those units until they fire so lead out with mounted recon and support. Better to lose an inexpensive half-track or armored car than a tank with an experienced crew. If you send in unsupported tanks, expect to lose some.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by RERomine

My best suggestion is to dedicate some sort of mounted recon and support to your flanking elements. The AI will always have some sort of AT or AA guns in the rear and infantry if it's a delay or defend. Odds are, you won't spot those units until they fire so lead out with mounted recon and support. Better to lose an inexpensive half-track or armored car than a tank with an experienced crew. If you send in unsupported tanks, expect to lose some.

Well over 3 years ago, I allowed the AI to pick ATG in the advance and attack (the pick had not done it when "going forwards" before) but at a reduced chance from the defence.

That was deliberate, to let it protect its rear areas from any unsupported armoured attacks.

Cheers
Andy

[Cross]

Hi Ketch,

When done right, and with a little luck, a few AFVs to the enemy rear can be very rewarding and a lot of fun. Of course, you shouldn't expect a high potential pay-off without a little risk.

My most successful behind the lines operations were achieved with stealth (at east initially) not fire power.

Therefore, large maps (compared to force size) lend themselves to success, and maps with plenty of cover but where you can still move quickly.

You must consider where you are likely to come across enemy units (especially playing against humans) and choose to avoid these areas or approach from an advantagous direction with caution.

Use fast moving vehicles.

Have a place in mind where you want to reach before being discovered.

Choose the longer (covered) safer route to get there.

Use a fast armoured car for point. Other vehicles follow the same path, so you're less likely to be discovered.

If you take infantry along, be prepared to unload them, move them forward to engage and KO ATG or whatever, then load back up and move on.

If you get caught in a heavy firefight, and you're not near your objective. Just disengage, load back up and move out; take another even longer route this time. It may be a couple of turns before your opponent (assuming human) realizes you're gone; and this can cause even more panic and confusion for him, than if you were still fighting him.

When behind enemy lines, 'hit and run' tactics will keep your men the most safe and have the biggest psychological impact.

Your enemy may have to completely reshuffle his forces to react to...
You know what they say 'order, counter-order, disorder'.

The size of the force you send behind lines, depends on your objectives, the map, and what you can spare. There's pros and cons to small and large forces.

Here's screen shot of one of my large and successful sorties behind the lines against a human opponent.

http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?i...attle8civ9.jpg

You can read about this battle here:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=31135

(it's post #8, Battle 8)


cheers,
Cross

[RERomine]

Without a doubt, very sage advice

It the given scenario, extra care will have to be taken to get to the rear of an battalion sized enemy on an 80x80 map.

Much depends on the opponent. The AI is not likely to react as much to units in its rear area, but a human player is likely to have fits. And Cross does have experience in PBEM games

[Lt. Ketch]

Thank you all of your advise. I'm looking forward to applying your tips and strategies in my next battle (the current one is, at the moment, too engaged in other ways). If anybody else wants to chime in, I would love to have your two bits.

Imp, You raise a very valid point. I always try to have a flexible defense for my rear units, but I do need to work better on my screening my flanks from those annoying scouts and AT teams that try to slip by. I like the corridor of smoke idea. Thanks.

RERomine, I am hesitant of mounted units, but more because I need to work on my tactics with them than any ineffeciency on their part. I don't expect loses when I send in unsupported tanks - it's a given. I don't like losing any units, but I can definatly see the advantage of a support HT being sacrificed for the "greater good." Thanks.

Cross, I remember reading that AAR and enjoying it. I try to implement several of the suggestions you gave (I'm usally pretty good about using the terrain to my advantage), but I hadn't really thought of disengaging (and thus cause more confusion) in favor of flanking the flank. Thanks.


Allow me to elaborate more on the most common of my problems in the event that it raises any more discussion. The situation - midway through the battle after my forces have clashed and meshed witht the enemy, the majority of the enemy is pinned or running. I send my tanks after those retreating while my infantry slogs through the sea of dead or dying humanity picking off the half squads, scouts, snipers, and AT teams that are lost in the fog of war. My tanks, in pursuit of the retreating elements blunder into a nest of ATGs/AAA/AT teams that are hiding in the rear area. Or I send my tanks after a plume of smoke less not far from their position and blunder into a nest etc.

I know that patience is the key, but at the same time I don't want the fleeing units to get into a calm stretch of map and rally back. I'd just as soon wipe them off the face of the earth while their running than have to do it when they're charging me, firing. Any additional thoughts, or do I just need to learn the dreaded patience?

[gila]

Originally Posted by Lt. Ketch

Thank you all of your advise. I'm looking forward to applying your tips and strategies in my next battle (the current one is, at the moment, too engaged in other ways). If anybody else wants to chime in, I would love to have your two bits.

Imp, You raise a very valid point. I always try to have a flexible defense for my rear units, but I do need to work better on my screening my flanks from those annoying scouts and AT teams that try to slip by. I like the corridor of smoke idea. Thanks.

RERomine, I am hesitant of mounted units, but more because I need to work on my tactics with them than any ineffeciency on their part. I don't expect loses when I send in unsupported tanks - it's a given. I don't like losing any units, but I can definatly see the advantage of a support HT being sacrificed for the "greater good." Thanks.

Cross, I remember reading that AAR and enjoying it. I try to implement several of the suggestions you gave (I'm usally pretty good about using the terrain to my advantage), but I hadn't really thought of disengaging (and thus cause more confusion) in favor of flanking the flank. Thanks.


Allow me to elaborate more on the most common of my problems in the event that it raises any more discussion. The situation - midway through the battle after my forces have clashed and meshed witht the enemy, the majority of the enemy is pinned or running. I send my tanks after those retreating while my infantry slogs through the sea of dead or dying humanity picking off the half squads, scouts, snipers, and AT teams that are lost in the fog of war. My tanks, in pursuit of the retreating elements blunder into a nest of ATGs/AAA/AT teams that are hiding in the rear area. Or I send my tanks after a plume of smoke less not far from their position and blunder into a nest etc.

I know that patience is the key, but at the same time I don't want the fleeing units to get into a calm stretch of map and rally back. I'd just as soon wipe them off the face of the earth while their running than have to do it when they're charging me, firing. Any additional thoughts, or do I just need to learn the dreaded patience?

Isn't that more a diving in the wedge strategy or outflanking?
If you are getting that much in your face infantry,increaseing map size would be the way to go as Cross has said.

[gila]

Btw, i try to keep my core force 2000-2500 never more on a 100x100 map size so flanking is possible.
If i decide to increase my core, then i will inch up map size as well.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Lt. Ketch

Allow me to elaborate more on the most common of my problems in the event that it raises any more discussion. The situation - midway through the battle after my forces have clashed and meshed witht the enemy, the majority of the enemy is pinned or running. I send my tanks after those retreating while my infantry slogs through the sea of dead or dying humanity picking off the half squads, scouts, snipers, and AT teams that are lost in the fog of war. My tanks, in pursuit of the retreating elements blunder into a nest of ATGs/AAA/AT teams that are hiding in the rear area. Or I send my tanks after a plume of smoke less not far from their position and blunder into a nest etc.

I know that patience is the key, but at the same time I don't want the fleeing units to get into a calm stretch of map and rally back. I'd just as soon wipe them off the face of the earth while their running than have to do it when they're charging me, firing. Any additional thoughts, or do I just need to learn the dreaded patience?

If we're talking about chasing down fleeing units, then it sounds like you've already know what you're doing wrong, and are getting a bit carried away in the moment.

It may help to remind yourself of your objectives, which likely isn't to anihilate every last man.

Damaged units may rally, but if you've beaten them back once, chances are you'll do it even better the second time.

I find fighting campaigns encourages me to play more conservatively, as I'm not as willing to risk good crews in a foolhardy 'charge of the light brigade'.

If you do see a good opportunity to use armour against fleeing infantry, try to drop smoke beyond the fleeing units, in front of likely ATG sites. Artillery is often down to smoke rounds by this stage of the battle anyway.


Another thought on map size

I first learned to play against an opponent who loved huge maps. So it was normal, and doesn't bother me, to have gaps in the line and vulnerable flanks. Any disadvantage is the same for your opponent; it's just another style of play.

On a large map with limited forces, it's the objectives which dictate company positions, and where you put what. This encourages a much more strategic rather than just tactical battle. Of course, it helps to have a decent amount of mobility in this sort of fight.