La Marignon research strategy against Ermor

[Cipher]

Hey guys, I am playing a LA MP using Marignon facing a nice () neighbour Ermor. I am considering research to Evo4 for Holy Pyre (also solar ray, but Marignon do not has many s2 mage) or Ench4 for Flamming Arrow. Hard to choose, both of them is nice against undead horde. What do you think?

[Humakty]

It seemed to me Marignon has gorgeous priests(h3, recuitable everywhere), who should do the job early on (Ermor doesn't produce that much chaff initialy). In fact I think you should jump on him with armies full of those priests and crush him during the first two years, before he has reached a critical mass of undeads (and killed all population in his territory). The only problem is that when you recruit a priest you don't recruit a mage, so you'll be behind in research.

[Cipher]

yeah. that's what I plan to, have to beat ermor early, can't wait the evo4. in exchange of slow research and site searching. . lucky I got an allies Abysia.

[Humakty]

I think you have good chances of success, as even their pretender will probably be an undead.(send those putrescent hordes back to hell !!!!)
For the rest, you should read Evilhomer strategy guide on LA Marignon, wich you will find in the second sticky of this forum. ( if you haven't read it already) It is full of good ideas. It was established on the unmodded game, if you're using CBM you can consider massing cavalry as shields to have a mobile army.

[JimMorrison]

In my experience, Holy Pyre is FAR more effective than even H3 Banish. The difference is actually huge if they are using their ability to boost MR on their undeads.

Even still, you also need some Cons ASAP and start making some Bags of Wine or something, else you will find yourself feasting on your own flesh soon enough, and then they've already won.

[chrispedersen]

Recently played MA Marig vs MA Ermor. Flame arrows was huge - but superfluous.

I think the key is not magical research - research straight up the evocation tree - fireclouds, fireballs are fine against undead chaff.

However, establish dominion in his territories - makes a huge difference on the size and efficacy of your turns. Additionally, establishing *your* dominion in his territories will reduce his freespawns, for a nice two fer.

[K]

You want Construction, actually. Putting Spell Focuses and Eyes of the Void on your H3s make them very good at knocking down Ermorian undead who are buffed by Ermor's special Holy magics.

If you are lucky, get a guy who can forge Crystal Matrixes and get those H3s up to H5s or H6s via Communions. Not only will the penetration increase in the Communion, but the AoE and base damage on Banishment will increase dramatically. (Crystal Shields will also give your H3/F1s a +1 Holy, so a simple H3/F1 who is your Prophet can be handed a Crystal Shield, a Crysta Matrix and am Eye of the Void and can be placed in a simple four man Communion for a whopping H7 with a +2 penetration on top of the base path penetration.... and watch the dead boys burn.)

While you are in Construction, you can also make Flambeaus(Holy Fire) and Holy Lances, as well as the Boots of Quickness to use them.

[Dragar]

I'd just rush him with H3s as soon as possible, catch up on research afterwards. Raise dominion as much as possible when they aren't actively attacking, especially if sitting in conquered lands he may take back as you fight. You will need supply items to attack if you don't take him out quickly.

The longer the game goes the more useless his land becomes to you, so don't hesitate.

Attacking raids can be useful too if facing a defensive force to big to handle. It normally takes a while for his troops to reach you, and few scripted banishes then retreat can wear him down or force him to attack into your lands, which lets you fight in your dominion and avoids supply issues until you are ready to crush him. The lack of healing on undead could make this especially effective over time.

[Micah]

If you've got some allies you should go for FA without exception, it's the best way to avoid completely gimping yourself, since it doesn't require you to pull your mages out into the field to spam artillery spells, just to recruit a lot of crossbows, which you'll be doing anyway. Especially if your allies can supply some wine bags to keep them fed. Large armies can be a problem if you're under-supplied, of course.

If you're on your own I'd probably go for evo first in terms of research, as you'll have a hard time feeding your legions of crossbows into Ermor's territory with no native N. Actually, if you're on your own I'd probably just give up, as Ermor is pretty damn unbalanced. Anyhow...buffed holy pyre can also hit stuff in the back of Ermor's horde, as I found out recently, so you might be able to pop a few leaders with it.

Honestly, on a smallish map in a duel I'd probably just spam high inquisitors every turn and get some indie priests to boot if you've got any extra cash and rush Ermor behind some chaff, research be damned. Time is working against you in a big way, as Thaum-5 gives Ermor Burden of Time, which will kill off your entire mage corps in short order, and Enchant-6 gives them Rigor Mortis, which is pretty much game over. Plus their troop generation is exponential. While they're getting stronger each turn you're having your upkeep rise steadily and get confronted with the fact that their dead zone is steadily growing along with the size of the army you'll need to have a shot to enter it, steadily compounding your supply problems. They're also pulling in a ton of gems off the bat, while you likely won't have the resources to keep up between searching, researching, and trying to fend off the ridiculous nation on your border. The ultimate anti-Ermor spell for Marignon is undoubtedly fire storm, and the matrix idea here would work wonderfully, since you should have enough gems together at that point to forge 4 of them. F3 + 1 level from communion + phoenix power will do you. Toss a couple of fire fends on your men-at-arms if you don't have anything better and watch Ermor burn. The problem here is that Ermor can probably drop BoT by the time you get it, and then you have no mages anymore, which is a problem when you're trying to cast spells.

Construction seems like a bad choice, since I have no idea how you'd be able to afford the kind of hardware that's being discussed if you ran straight for construction, especially with default LA site settings. As a research choice down the line though it's certainly a valuable addition to your arsenal.

Giving a priest a crystal shield with 8! spellcasting encumbrance is generally not a good plan. Crystal shields are best used to bump a mage dropping a big enchantment, not one that's casting 0-fatigue spells every round. I can't speak to the communion idea, but if it lets you spam boosted banishes for free using the last caster in the order as the communion master that's pretty badass. I'm still at a loss as to how you'd afford that many matrices, but still, badass if you can manage it. Flambeaus are an excellent use for any extra F gems you have, no doubt about it.

If you've got allies I'd try to get them to forge some of the items discussed while you focus on direct artillery, since you'll be front-lining it, and items can be sent with just a 1-turn delay, so no huge loss.

[K]

It's be helpful to hear what kind of pretender you are using.

Otherwise:

Originally Posted by Micah

The ultimate anti-Ermor spell for Marignon is undoubtedly fire storm, and the matrix idea here would work wonderfully, since you should have enough gems together at that point to forge 4 of them. F3 + 1 level from communion + phoenix power will do you. Toss a couple of fire fends on your men-at-arms if you don't have anything better and watch Ermor burn. The problem here is that Ermor can probably drop BoT by the time you get it, and then you have no mages anymore, which is a problem when you're trying to cast spells.

Construction seems like a bad choice, since I have no idea how you'd be able to afford the kind of hardware that's being discussed if you ran straight for construction, especially with default LA site settings. As a research choice down the line though it's certainly a valuable addition to your arsenal.

That seems strange advice considering that Fire Storm is Research level 7 and costs five gems per casting. By definition, if you can afford to cast it in a war with multiple battles you have enough gems to build the items I mentioned. Even Flaming Arrows is a fire gem per casting so this is another gem intensive tactic; you only get F3's who will either need to spend two gems to get Flaming Arrows or will cast Phoenix Power and probably blow an extra gem on that because of the dumb AI, so to be on the safe side you are blowing two gems per battle.

Evo4 is probably your best bet for quick offensive magic if you are pessimistic about finding gems since Holy Fire is made to kill undead and it scales when boosted, but for a mid-game strategy I'd find ways to boost Holy and Fire, and that only works through Con.

Consider Blood as well. Not only is that an alternate way to get into a Communion, but Hell Power is a great way to go out if you have a diseased old mage who won't last anyway. Remember to keep chaff on guard commander since the Horrors pop in battle to kill him after he casts it. Also, Reinvigoration is a Blood spell that spreads though Communions, so it's an excellent way to keep fatigue down for your slaves(but hard to script).

Originally Posted by Micah

Giving a priest a crystal shield with 8! spellcasting encumbrance is generally not a good plan. Crystal shields are best used to bump a mage dropping a big enchantment, not one that's casting 0-fatigue spells every round. I can't speak to the communion idea, but if it lets you spam boosted banishes for free using the last caster in the order as the communion master that's pretty badass. I'm still at a loss as to how you'd afford that many matrices, but still, badass if you can manage it. Flambeaus are an excellent use for any extra F gems you have, no doubt about it.

The important thing to remember is that you only need one Master Matrix per H3/F1 and then you can have your Astral mages like Navigators fill up the slave slots (or the Blood 1 guys you get, if you don't mind the blood slave upkeep).

Also, a Crystal Shield is high spellcasting encumberance, but the difference between a H6 and a H7 when casting Banishment is more than the mere +1 Penetration you get from the extra path level (of course, every two paths above the min to cast is +1 penetration, so this is a sweet spot since Banishment is H1). The extra area and damage more than make up for the fact that you won't be in the battle that long, and since you are in a Communion anyway the fatigue gets passed around (I have an little test game where a mage with spellcasting encumberance 18 and Reinvig 2 ends up with only 23 fatigue by the end of the battle after spamming Banishment the whole combat). H7 clears whole chunks of the battlefield while H3s just kill a few units and damage the rest.