End Game Summons

[chrispedersen]

A lot of attention has been given to equalize end games summons.

But I would like to suggest that currently the game really requires SC's to win in endgames. Aka that the balance has gone to far in favor of SC's. There should be alternate strategies to victory.

How about *also* having each unit have advanced units. Units that would be too expensive to build under normal circumstances - but which might do well in the end game.

Perhaps golems, iron dragons, or panzers for ulm.

If the costs were high enough they would be an endgame purchase. Alternately you could just have them unlock.. turn 20, turn 40 etc.

It would also be interesting if you could research improvements for each race.
For example, Explosive Crossblows for EA Marignon. Or improved Attack strength for Agartha.

Or improved Dominion for man.

[JimMorrison]

Well personally, I think the best way to handle that mechanic, is through national spells.

This way you tie them to research, powerful "possibly capital only" mages, and gem production, rather than just money. But also, you would see that things like these "Explosive Crossbows" would in fact be a spell that is similar to flaming arrows, but better in some way. In some cases it may even just be a battlefield spell that costs gems for everyone else, but without the gem cost for that particular nation.

But yes, 2 things it would be good to have fill out the late game:

1- Spells that help minimize the weaknesses of the nation, or further enhance their strengths to counter increasing defenses.

2- High level summons that rather than generating one incredibly powerful commander, are VERY cost/gem effective at creating multiple mid level or elite troops of a thematically sound nature.

2.5- I do like SCs though, so I also think it would be nice to have more variety in the singularly powerful late game summons. Though, if point -2- were used to make the lesser used paths more viable in late game, that would suffice very well to accomplish the same goal - more options for victory.

<3

[dirtywick]

JimMorrison said:

1- Spells that help minimize the weaknesses of the nation, or further enhance their strengths to counter increasing defenses.

I'd modify this a bit though. I think there needs to be more spells in general at late levels of research with more path diversity (astral and death clearly have more options, while air and fire...not so much), especially 1 to 3 path battlefield magic. Even if existing spells just scaled more, like Evoc 9 let you shoot like 30 fire darts or Const 9 has Legions of Steel for every unit under the mages command or Alt 9 for AOE blindness, or whatever.

It would help to keep even standard armies and mages more relevant if they had options to be competitive.

[HoneyBadger]

As fun as SCs are, there are so many different tactics and takes on late-game units that don't involve a bigger guy with a bigger stick, or not *just* that, and I'd really like to encourage that way of thinking, because sadly our units only go up to size 6. The SCs we have, I personally think-first of all-should be immortal, healing, etc. much more often, so that they don't go gimpy from afflictions, and secondly-should belong in the middle game, more than the endgame, with more suble, refined units/strategies coming into play that the SCs can either become incorporated into, or defeated by. The advantage of this is that those neat SCs get to stay around longer, without getting so bloated and lame that they become ridiculous.

[Twan]

Units :

Recruitable powerful units will be used for rush even if they are reasonably expensive (or if they are extremely expensive won't be used, as not cost effective in late game compared to mages).

More, or more cost effective really good troops summons, are an option. But if these troops aren't mindless or with an insane MR their existence would make astral (enslave spells) even more interesting.


Upgrades :

It's very unlikely to see a change of this magnitude added in a patch.

An upgrade system is doable with dynamic modding but would require a lot of work for the host/modder, and players downloading the mod each time an unit progress.

[Loren]

How about recruitables with an associated research requirement?

[chrispedersen]

There is a medium between not used and not as cost effective as mages.

For example: For ulm War Machines: Chariots with 100 hp that cost 600 gold and 60 resources each.

For Agartha: Terra Cotta Regiment:
Each regiment comes with 45 soldier. Each soldier has 45 hp, prot 20, sacred.

Cost 1200 and 200 resources.

Play with the numbers. Sure mages are cheaper - but mages can fall victim due to lower hp.

[Aezeal]

Chariots of 600 gold?

In what way would they be different from the size 6 gath chariot that is much cheaper?

[JimMorrison]

I think he's just saying it would behave like a chariot, being a gigantic trampling unit. But it would be different from the Gath chariot in that it has 100hp, as he said. Also, I'd imagine it's this hulking metal monstrosity that is far better armored than any other chariot, in fact it's sort of a Blacksteel War Chariot, which could be actually powered by 2 mammoths completely ensconced in the steel body of the Machine.

The Terra Cotta soldiers sound a little excessively powerful, especially as sacreds. But that sort of thing is great. I just really think that the system of forcing it to be managed as a summons is the way to go with it. Even at 1200g and 200 resources, you would want to buy that ASAP. Why? Because you could take 3 indy (or low-mid PD) provinces at a time without a single loss, and if your neighbor had 45 sacreds with 20 prot and 45hp, and you didn't? They would slaughter you to the last man with no question of victory.

[sector24]

I think it could be interesting to have ultra powerful 300+ resource units. You could only recruit 1 per turn per castle (or 0 for some castles), it would increase the value of the production scale (you might be able to pump out 2 a turn with 3 production?), and you might actually consider building fortress outside of swamps.