Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.

[Luckmann]

Hey everyone, new member here. Started playing Dominions 3 just less than a week or so ago and I'm totally hooked.

As usual, I can't stay away from modding the game to my liking. First, it starts out slanting things in my favour just a little bit. Then when I get the hang of it, I look into editors and before I know it, I'm throwing sprites and programs around, editing textfiles by hand. Just like any game that's easily modded.

I've done three custom pretenders so far and I usually base my sprites on already-existing ingame sprites. My last one was "The Ecclesiarch". I've got a online friend that I usually throw ideas with, back-and-forth, showing my work to.

But when I threw him that one (originally based around the Lich Queen and intentionally meant as a anti-undead character) he immediatly reacted "Totally OP". Personally, I don't see why.

Awe & Fear are both +2 and only really helps with not getting hurt. Making the unit "Sacred" is an unfortunate sideffect of being based around the "High Inquisitor"-commander; It's not intended, but since the character is supposed to be a "Pretender-by-proxy" character, I don't mind.

I deliberatly tried to make the character unique, as far as pretenders go. It gets considerable bonuses to pillage, patrol, and Fortune Telling. Immortality isn't immortality per see, but fluff-wise it's just that the pretender, as long as the "proxy" is within his domain, can flee the body and appoint a new proxy.

The 6 Priest Levels is more or less the one single reason for the high (compared to many others) cost of the character.

I JUST don't see this character as OP, except arguably when facing large amounts of undeads (6 Priest, again).

So instead of keeping up with arguing with my friend over it's supposed overpowered-ness I thought I'd throw ball with you people instead that have a better general grasp. Is it really OP? Or is it in fact UP and should have it's cost lowered? Or is it perfect?

Please, any comments would be helpful, since I always try to strive for mods that fit into the spirit of any game, albeit unique in execution.

Oh, and before I forget, my name is Varenus von Luckmann. A pleasure being here.

Edit/Addenum: Here's a link to a screencap of the Ecclesiarch. Compare it to the Lich Queen (which I originally used as a base and had in mind when creating the character) and the Prince of Death which I'd be willing to consider as OP in comparisom, especially since it's actually at a LOWER cost. And with an insane +13 Fear.

[Saulot]

Welcome. It's nice to see a new modder.

(This will likely cover things you know, but better to lean on the side of caution and explain more thoroughly than not, for the benefit of all.)

By default, pretenders aren't sacred... or priests.

There are reasons for that, and balance isn't even chief amongst them. Dominions consists of two major groups of units. The first being a pretender (a god by definition), and the latter being everyone else, who worships the god.

As you can see, one couldn't really pray to oneself.

The world of dominions is one where the focus is belief. Belief is a powerful, almost tangible thing. Belief is what makes the pretender god powerful. Absolute belief grants absolute power, and no belief means your pretender god goes poof (the tinkerbell effect). That is the reason your pretender god is fighting the other pretenders, to attain the belief of everyone.

In exchange for believing in your pretender, your pretender grants his/her followers powers. The very faithful who completely believe in your pretender are sacred, and there are some (priests) who spread the pretenders message and thus spread belief in the pretender.

Your pretender spreads belief (represented by your dominion) simply because well, if I saw Zeus riding his horse through my neighborhood, or Thor throwing a lightning bolt, I couldn't help but believe.

Anyway, I understand that the concept behind your unit is that it isn't actually the pretender, just an important prophet, (and this out of the box thinking is good), it is for intents and purposes a pretender (especially if one wants to think about balance).

So, after the sacred and the priest thing (and the inquisitor ability with it), there are a couple other things which stand out about your unit. First it has Magic Res. 12. Which is real low. It has protection 12, which seems to be unexplained. It has 18 hitpoints, despite being a human (humans tend to have 10, but I could see an older mage/priest-type as having 8). It also has 0 encumbrance, which is mostly reserved for undead and very powerful magical beings. Fear stands out very much on a human, as strange. Pillage and Patrol is something unlikely to come up, as those aren't really tasks for a pretender.

I recommend you look at the Dom 3 database, to see the stats of various units, to give you a better idea of how most units and pretenders are set up. Balance is a difficult thing, so don't give up.

[Luckmann]

Yes, like I said, the "Sacred" attribute of the Ecclesiarch is an unfortunate side-effect of there not being a #inquisitor command. As far as Priest levels go, it never DID make sense to me that the pretenders doesn't all have the ability to bless their faithful themselves.

I realize that Pillage and Patrol are both abilities that (along with Preaching/Inquisitor) are things the Pretender will rarely do. Which is why I made the bonuses to those considerable, so that someone would at least consider doing it at times - but in the end, it's mostly added for fluff, which is why I really don't consider it overpowered.

The reasons behind the at-times "wierd" stats for a "human" is because he was originally modeled around the Lich Queen and then somewhat "nerfed" from there. He's not as much a human anymore as the anathema of the liches, directly influenced and controlled by the "actual" pretender (much as the Oracle or Fountain of Blood are possessed by a powerful spirit) - as opposed to, say, the Great Sage or Master Druid, who are still fully human. Just very powerful humans.

For example, he also can't equip helmets or chestpieces, like most (all?) base humans can. Instead he's got 4 Misc. spots, which I attribute to his retinue.

Instead of a prophet, I suppose one should rather consider him a Jesus-figure (who was not a Prophet, but an embodiment of God) or a Pope (who is the human stand-in for God, on earth).

With, of course, the exception that THIS Pope can actually throw lightning bolts and heal wounds. All present base humans also have a lower point cost.

The question isn't really wheter he's fully human or not anymore, but wheter or not he's somewhat balanced, should have a lower point cost or higher.

[Maraxus]

The Prince of death is not immortal. His dominion is lower and each path costs 10 more.

Compare with the Lich queen. Basicly she has:
+1 magic, poor amphibious, other magic, other slots
The Ecclesiarch has:
30 points cheaper, +6 holy, Inquisitor, awe and fear.

The creature type is minor, the resistences somewhat balance out, pillage and patrol are minor, unless they are insanely high (like close to 100) and likewise fortune teller is minor unless it's really high (50 or more)

Still, this 6 holy and inquisitor are a serious combination, especially with a dominion 4 Pretender. You can get 8 or even 9 dominion strength quite cheap and then it's like:
-Step into provine
-preach a turn
-dominion is yours for sure.

This ability by itself should be quite expencive but next there is te synergy with immortality.

I would definitly say: Not below 150 points, or it might be better to reduce the holy to 4 points, just to be save.

[llamabeast]

I don't think the preaching is quite as good as you think, Maraxus. I believe holy-6 ness just guarantees a successful preaching, producing 1 candle. Inquisitor won't normally even make any difference, being as the probability will already be 100%.

[Saulot]

Well, he'd also get a second auto-preach by virtue of being a pretender. Anyway, the aspect of the synergies is quite accurate. That awe +2 could easily become awe +5. With his area effect weapon he could start taking provinces on turn 2. He doesn't have undead vulnerabilities, and he's immortal. Being in dominion isn't a problem.

He's sacred, and so can bless himself. With an astral bless he boosts his MR, which is the weakest link.

Anyway, balancing against a POD isn't that great an idea, since a POD is considered one of the strongest pretenders available.

[Luckmann]

Saulot said:
Well, he'd also get a second auto-preach by virtue of being a pretender. Anyway, the aspect of the synergies is quite accurate. That awe +2 could easily become awe +5. With his area effect weapon he could start taking provinces on turn 2. He doesn't have undead vulnerabilities, and he's immortal. Being in dominion isn't a problem.

He's sacred, and so can bless himself. With an astral bless he boosts his MR, which is the weakest link.

Anyway, balancing against a POD isn't that great an idea, since a POD is considered one of the strongest pretenders available.

First, what do you mean with second auto-preach by being a pretender? Does Pretenders automaticly preach is whatever region they are at any given time? Also, as far as I know, preaching only reaches a certain limit before it becomes ineffective(?).

While the point with Astral bless is valid, that was an aspect I hadn't considered. Although Astral Bless is, to my understanding (and personal opinion) one of the overall weakest in the entire game when it comes to blessing units.

I just wish I could actually remove "Sacred" without loosing the "Inquisitor". One is something I consider necessary to the character's flavour. The other is an inconsistant annoyance. ()

And yeah, I tried balancing it towards the Vampire Queen, originally. I just used the PoD as an example of widely considered "Stronger" (than most) pretender at a lower cost.

[Saulot]

Pretenders automatically spread dominion (you could consider it preaching, for free). It's on pg 92 of the manual.

Click on a temple in game to see what's spreading dominion, and by how much.

Also, since we're talking about a lvl 6 priest, he could raise to a theoretical maximum of lvl 12 dominion (13 with a temple). Though 10 is the actual limit of dominion.

Edit:

Offhand, the best comparison is probably another immortal, living pretender, a "Bakemono Kunshu" (unit 1428).

[Luckmann]

Maraxus said:
The Prince of death is not immortal. His dominion is lower and each path costs 10 more.

Compare with the Lich queen. Basicly she has:
+1 magic, poor amphibious, other magic, other slots
The Ecclesiarch has:
30 points cheaper, +6 holy, Inquisitor, awe and fear.

The creature type is minor, the resistences somewhat balance out, pillage and patrol are minor, unless they are insanely high (like close to 100) and likewise fortune teller is minor unless it's really high (50 or more)

Still, this 6 holy and inquisitor are a serious combination, especially with a dominion 4 Pretender. You can get 8 or even 9 dominion strength quite cheap and then it's like:
-Step into provine
-preach a turn
-dominion is yours for sure.

This ability by itself should be quite expencive but next there is te synergy with immortality.

I would definitly say: Not below 150 points, or it might be better to reduce the holy to 4 points, just to be save.

Patrol, Pillage and Fortune Teller are all 20/each.

But yes, I see the point about the dominions. I wouldn't want to lower the priest level (because under all circumstances, I'd like it to be higher than any base commander, who's maximum is 5 (4 + 1 Prophet), but how about lowering initial Dominion to 2, instead of 4?

Note though, that the Ecclesiarch also have overall lower stats than the Lich Queen, with the only exception being Leadership.

Edit: Bah, spelling errors. I've been up for waaaay to long at the moment.

[PvK]

Very nice! I like the discussion and related ideas, too. It is very interesting the idea of pretenders who can generate units (especially with abilities a nation might lack without that pretender choice, such as inquisitors) and I like the idea of an immobile building that could generate the head-of-state too, except that'd probably require the player to self-limit himself from summoning many (unless you can take the unique unit ability from some unique existing unit or something).

I agree that the immortality can be explained by choosing the replacement based on his "stigmata" by people who believe he is a vessel for a holy spirit, that the story of each incarnation is significant, etc. Also if he dies outside dominion the Call God period can be construed as there were insufficient witnesses who are trusted enough in the faith that the old Ecclesiarch has truly fallen, or the details of the story haven't been confirmed speedily and consistently enough yet so there are still arguments about who should replace him, etc.