Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN

[Lord_Bob]

Since some people like being deliberately obtuse, I have decided to be clear.

The totally useless PD of these nations is why none of them have ever registered a single win in multi-player. The mages change, and troops are, of course, replacable, but none of these races has ever registered a win. NOT ONCE. Why?

Because for 230 gold, or less, you can create an "invincible raiding force" that will defeat any PD below 20. After 20 the one Bandar monkey per point makes things mildly more difficult, but not much. You'll probably need 10-20 more gold in archers per point to route all the little monkeys which will route the bandar(you don't ever have to fight the bandar, you just have to make sure they route quickly). That's it. Raid the hell out of them. Easy.

For reference, this is the pathetic Ape PD per point:
Some Markata "soldiers"(Morale 7, Melee Damage 8, yes 8, 0 protection, 5 hitpoints)
Some Markata "archers"(Morale 7, Bow Damage 6, yes 6, 0 protection, 5 hitpoints)
1/2 Per Point(YES THAT'S ONE EVERY OTHER POINT) Atavi "Soldier"(Morale 8, Protection 1)
1/2 Per Point(YES, AGAIN, THAT'S ONE EVERY OTHER POINT!) Atavi "Archer"(Morale 8, Protection 1)

I'm just wondering if it's intentional that PD prevent the monkeys, in any age, from winning. Ever.

Also, if you will notice, KissBlade, the only dedicated Patala Player, has built his entire nation around anti-raiding power. That is, he gets the Vampire Queen. This is the correct thing for KissBlade to do.

HOWEVER, IT IS PATHETIC THAT THE ENTIRE PRETENDER DESIGN BE DETERMINED BY WEAK PD.

[Lord_Bob]

I would like to emphasize that the Markata each count as much as the Atavi and the Bandar towards the 75% lost/routes and everyone routes rule. I would also like people to consider that the Markata have a morale of 7. With Dominion and "full strength" bonus that gives them an effective morale of 7 + 1 + 5 = 13. That means they have a 46% chance of routing on their first morale check.

When does their first morale check occur? Well, they have Protection 0, and 5 hitpoints. The Markata recieve their first morale check the first time they are hit with arrow fire, and every time after.

Because of their greater numbers, once the markata route the 75% rule is either achieved, or very close to achieved, and everyone routes. Game over.

I suspect if you played games you could beat 20 PD with 130 gold. If you had some tough Indy archers. However, I don't care to check, because it is obvious that a raiding group of LESS GOLD THAN THE PD COST can defeat the PD PROBABLY WITHOUT CASUALITIES.

[K]

The monkey PD is can one of the few that defeat a Black Hawk attack with only an investment of 1 gold.

The problem that most people have is that they don't realize that the monkeys get the best summons in the game. If you put a bunch of Gandarvas on the field with a good regen and maybe an Earth bless backed up by some of the Protection buffing spells you get(Wooden Warriors, Iron Warriors, Legions of Steel) and the MR buffs, and even the crazy buffs(ones that grant Luck, Etherealsness, or other powers), and you are unstoppable.

Combine basic magic with wicked troops, and you get armies that don't take losses from fights with armies. Only mages are to be feared, and even they don't do much.

[Lord_Bob]

Combine basic magic with wicked troops, and you get armies that don't take losses from fights with armies. Only mages are to be feared, and even they don't do much.

Your problem is that your aren't thinking on the same scale as I am. A mage comes from a castle with a lab. Probably a temple to. He probably costs more than 100 gold. The infrastructure cost is 1700 Gold, at least, and some serious money for the troops.

My "defeat any monkey PD" raiding force is built in a normal Indie province without castle, lab, or temple. It costs less than 200 gold for the whole thing, including commander, and probably can be built using the resources of the province in two turns. The infrastructure required is 0 Gold. 0 Gold. Let that sink in. 0 Gold. The total troop cost is under 200 gold. That is the cost of the single mage you have built. Just him. That's it. I can construct probably 11 of these raiding forces by the time you have your infrastructure set up and your first force built.

Obviously you can spam these raiding forces, quick and easy. If they hit 20 PD(cost 200 gold), they defeat it. Your opponent loses tax income for at least one turn, and you get it, I believe? That's 100 gold right there. Very nearly paying for the raiding force. By itself. Of course, you are also forcing your enemy to respond to your annoying attacks.

[HJFudge]

One solution might be to keep him so busy responding to YOUR attacks and YOUR raids that he does not have the time to do this.

Oh. And people really should have more than one fort and a lab before this happens. Dont wait for the raiding forces to start coming BEFORE you invest in defense. Prepare for it ahead of time. Make your border provinces and chokepoints MORE than 20 PD by whatever amount you need to STOP such attacks.

If you wait till 11 raiding forces are coming in before you begin to make preperations to stop such attack dont cry cause really, its not the games fault you suck

[HJFudge]

Another thing I think you forget is that an enemy investing in any amount of raiding forces (11 is 2200 gold total, NOT cheap) is investing in a one trick poney. They might be good for raiding but really what else use do they have? Any real army will roll over them.

Second point. A fort and lab and mages all have many uses outside of stopping a raiding force bonanza. After said raiding forces are stopped or at least controlled, you can turn to more offensive uses immediately. Its a much more quality investment.

[Evilhomer]

If you have astral you can mind hunt the raiding forces. Also pd is not all, several nations has as bad pd (like the giants) and still manage to score wins in larger mp games.

I would rate the ape nations as average or slightly below average in total. Several nations has alot worse deal (Early age: marvereni, Middle age: ulm, late age: Abysia just to mention a few).

[Lord_Bob]

And yet they never win. In any age.

[quantum_mechani]

What nations have won long term games is a pretty rough guide of the best nations. Considering _all_ the nations are roughly in the 0-3 wins range, a particular nation having 0 instead of the average is easily a statistical anomaly. And further, the winners are generally much more decided by player's skill then nation power (and I would not assume the best players pick the best nations- different people find different nations fun, and mot people get tired of playing the same set of nations).

Also, Jotunhiem is generally regarded as having some of the weakest PD, and has plenty of wins.

[thejeff]

I am curious, and don't have the game in front of me. Does Lanka use the same PD?