Air Cobras

[Dimitry]

This problem is common for all US Air Cobra modifications, but I will take up AH-1 TOW modification.

So.
Obat 12 USA

Unit 121 AH-1 TOW
Unit 120 AH-1 TOW

Size - 2 EW - 8

First, why the size is so small? In reality AirCobra is slightly bigger than MI-2, that got the in-game size of 3.
Plus a pile of weapons - TOW missiles, FFAR, 20-mm. cannon/2x7,62mm minguns and TI.

Second - EW is sky high. In reality Air Cobra is not so big chopper, there is simply not enough free space in it to carry such powerful EW system (almost on the level of B-52 )
Taking into consideration that B-52, sized 6 got EW system of 10, I can assume that Air Cobra should have EW somewhere around 4.

[DRG]

Do you guys ever bother to actually TEST your ideas and see what kind change it makes in gameplay or is this just an exercise in comparing stats?

So in the end the difference is you GUESS it should be lower by comparing it to other things. I did not add the Cobra to the US OOB but until somebody gives me better information than just "I can assume that Air Cobra should have..." it stays the way it is becasue all that is is your opinion in conflict with the opinion of the orginal OOB designer.


Don

[Dimitry]

DRG said:
Do you guys ever bother to actually TEST your ideas and see what kind change it makes in gameplay or is this just an exercise in comparing stats?

Though I don't understand your question (my post is not a result of some "idea" but of a plane logic), I would like to ask a counter question: did you guys ever try to use a simple logic before setting such an improbable unit in the game? To say nothing of thinking about the game balance.
And it is not an "exercise in comparing stats" - if WinSPMBT has pretensions of realism, the size of the unit is to be REAL. So if MI-2 has a size of 3, AH-1 Cobras also have to be the same size. Because in REALITY it is so.
If you want a proof - just search web for MI-2 and Cobra dimensions.

DRG said:
So in the end the difference is you GUESS it should be lower by comparing it to other things. I did not add the Cobra to the US OOB but until somebody gives me better information than just "I can assume that Air Cobra should have..." it stays the way it is becasue all that is is your opinion in conflict with the opinion of the orginal OOB designer.


Don

Of course, I'm comparing Cobra to other in-game units - otherwise, what do I have to compare it to?
And yes, my (and not only - there are a lot of other people who are agree with me) opinion is in conflict with the opinion of the orginal OOB designer. Because I don't understand their criteria of EW estimation. Could you clarify this for me?
And since you need better information - here it is:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ah-1-specs.htm

No signs of electronic attack pods or something like this - just chaffs and flares.

By the way - what is the modification of these "AH-1 TOW" Cobras?
Due to the time period this is AH-1S Modernized Cobra.
And here is the information:

"....Of 530 Modernized Cobras, 387 were converted for old AG-1G Cobras and 143 were from new Production aircraft. The Modernized Cobra featured a new fire control system with a pilot's M76 Head-Up Display (HUD)............ in addition to the M65 TOW/Cobra missile system, and the M197 20mm gun on the new M97A2 universal turret. The Modernized AH-1S could mount M158 seven-tube, M200 19-tube, M260 seven-tube, or M261 19-tube rocket launchers. The Modernized AH-1S Cobra had an infrared jammer mounted on the top of the engine fairing and a hot metal plus plume infrared suppressor extending from the back of the engine.

As far as I remember, such infrared jammer equipment is equal to the in-game EW of 3.
I think this information should be enough.

[narwan]

As to size differences there is one important thing you shouldn't forget. There are so many units in this game fo any given general type that it is very easy to put them all next to each other in such a way that each next one is only fractionally larger than the one before it. In other words they are nearly the same size and according to your logic they should have the same size in the game. But that would mean the smallest one in the line would still have the same size as the biggest one in the line! Somewhere along the line arbitrary choices have to be made as to where a size upgrade is put in place, even if this means that two units that are nearly equal in size in real life end up with different sizes in the game. It is an unavoidable abstraction of the game.

Then there's the problem of what to look for in 'size' of a unit. I recall an earlier debate for WW2 units on this same issue where the question was how to relate tank height, width and length into one 'size' factor. The british Valentine for example was significantly lower but much wider than other tanks in that period. How to solve that size wise?
Same with helicopters. Do you look at size of the fuselage and if so at the length or width or height in particular? Do you look at the height of the rotor section or the span of the rotors? How do you weigh all these factors to come to a size factor that is 'real'?
The answer is by judgement call. With which you can agree or disagree.

Narwan

[Dimitry]

Thank you for your reply.

Well, mostly I can agree with you.
But.
If you look at MI-2 and Cobra dimensions - you will see that MI-2 is even a bit smaller. Why Cobra that in reality is the same size as MI-2 is one third smaller in game? So there is no place for vexed questions.

[loktarr]

I'm not sure about it but I think that you miss some point about the size in game: I think it represents not only the actual size of the unit but also his mobility... Why? Because size is used as a factor in to-hit determination, thus it probably includes the agility of the helo, and I'm pretty sure that hitting an Aircobra is much harder than hitting a slow going Mi-8. Am I wrong?

[KraMax]

I welcome all.

The MI-2 and Cobra helicopters are same size.
Look at the dimensions:

Cobra

Main rotor diameter 14.63 m
Fuselage length 13.87 m
Wing span 03.28 m
Width overall 03.28 m
Overall height 04.44 m

MI-2
Main rotor diameter 14.6 m
Fuselage length 11.9 m
Wing span 03.05 m
Width overall 02.65 m
Overall height 3.7 m

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