Interesting Note on Canadian Future Armor.

[Sewter]

Hello Warriors,

I have recently read something curious and thought to share. It concerns an interesting direction of tactics for the Canadian Army.

"Today the Canadian Armed Forces Leopard 1 fleet consists of 114 Leopard C1 MBTs, six AVLBs, eight ARVs and nine Badger AEVs. Subsequently, the whole fleet of Leopard C1 MBTs was fitted with the more recent Leopard 1A5 turret and the vehicle was designated Leopard C2.

The Leopard C2 will now be replaced by the 105 mm Mobile Gun System (MGS) variant of the Stryker (8 � 8) vehicle now in service with the US Army. It is expected that a total of 66 MGSs will be ordered to replace the current fleet of 114 Leopard C2 MBTs."

The quote is from an article on Janes Armor and Artillery (website). This seems to bring up the seemingly ageless (modern) debate over heavy tracked armor versus the lighter wheeled armor. This may have more to do with Canada's role in NATO 'peacekeeping', and the mobility of heavy firepower to remote locations IE: Afghanistan. There is a low threat of any invasion into Canada, I would imagine as well.

[JaM]

Doing this, will be the most stupid thing ever. Stryker MGS is the worst support gun vehicle ever. They will replace Leopard C2, tank with quite decent armor, capable of firing on the move with good cross-country ability, with vehicle with weak armor,capable moving only on good roads,(any heavier rain or artylery craters will block it),uncapable of firing on the move. Any resistance armed with even old RPG-7 will make quick end with it.( you cant add grill armor, becouse you will block a gun...) Much better alternative will be to buy XM8 Thunderbolt than this crap.

[thatguy96]

I'm going to restate my opinion looking at the matter from a larger point of view that most Canadian nationalists and tank-hungry armor traditionalists will.

Firstly, and most importantly, when if ever has Canada as an entity fought a conflict without being part of a large force? Whether their units operate independantly or not, Canada does not have a history of starting conflicts which is must fight itself.

Secondly, the current Canadian heavy transport structure does not have the capability to transport any of the Current Leopard C1/C2 fleet with any rapidity to any hotspot destination in the world.

Why not then, should the Canadian Army realize the truth of its predicament. It can either placate the staunch armor traditionalists and maintain tanks it will likely never have any real use for and that it cannot currently readily contribute to any of its deployments worldwide anyone, or it can use its unique situaiton to experiment with new types of mechanized/motorized warfare. It has the ability given its alliances and usual international obligations to experiment with a non-tank armored force in what is essentially a consequence free enviornment.

Why shouldn't Canadians toss their tank force which is costly and currently serves no purpose in their international deployment? While the Stryker MGS might not be a good replacement based on its merits as a vehicle, why shouldn't an idea be played upon by the Canadians? I say it is impossible to find a realistic scenario where Canadians would actually find need for a heavy armored force that couldn't be provided by a slew of allied forces.

[JaM]

M8 AGS is much more transportable than Stryker MGS and much better armored and mobile.

[PlasmaKrab]

JaM said:
M8 AGS is much more transportable than Stryker MGS and much better armored and mobile.

The point is that the LAV-III MGS is much more transportable and mobile than the old Leos.
OK, that's strategic mobility we are talking about here. Surely a full-fledged tank will behave better on rugged terrain once deployed, but as Mark said, you have to delpoy it first.
Canada hasn't and could barely afford the transport plane fleet to deploy 30-ton tanks.
Now that the Germany deployment is irrelevant, all Canadian forces have to be reformatted to more deployable standards.

Besides, because I know you could argue that the M8 is as deployable and more mobile than the MGS, remember that the LAV-III (Mowag Piranha-III) is already in extensive service in the Canadian forces, and domestically produced in Canada, while the Stingray isn't actually produced anywhere. Do you see where that leads us?

Not necessarily the best decision in procurment history, but there is definitely a rationale behind it.

[thatguy96]

I thought the Thais were using the Stingray? Not to mention I think the XM8 with all the applique armor wasn't very air transportable, at least not by C-130, and without it it wasn't very armored either.

[VDS]

Sewter said:
"Today the Canadian Armed Forces Leopard 1 fleet consists of 114 Leopard C1 MBTs, six AVLBs, eight ARVs and nine Badger AEVs. Subsequently, the whole fleet of Leopard C1 MBTs was fitted with the more recent Leopard 1A5 turret and the vehicle was designated Leopard C2.

The Leopard C2 will now be replaced by the 105 mm Mobile Gun System (MGS) variant of the Stryker (8 � 8) vehicle now in service with the US Army. It is expected that a total of 66 MGSs will be ordered to replace the current fleet of 114 Leopard C2 MBTs."

The quote is from an article on Janes Armor and Artillery (website). This seems to bring up the seemingly ageless (modern) debate over heavy tracked armor versus the lighter wheeled armor. This may have more to do with Canada's role in NATO 'peacekeeping', and the mobility of heavy firepower to remote locations IE: Afghanistan. There is a low threat of any invasion into Canada, I would imagine as well.

The Belgian army seems to be going the same way, but even worse. It may also be replacing all (or almost all) of its Leopard 1 Tanks with a modified Piranha III with a 90mm(!) turret.
All the heavy tracked APCs will be replaced by Dingo IIs and Piranha IIIs. And they also recently bought the Iveco Panther MLVs.

[pdoktar]

Maybe war isn�t going to roam in Europe anymore. So this might be a wise choice, money spent on heavy military vehicles in a country like Belgium is better spent on something else. Besides, considering the limited capability of Leo 1, the phasing out of such heavy vehicles of limited use is wise.

[MarkSheppard]

Canada is sending their Leopards to Afghanistan to kill the taliban now; also the Dutch are deploying their J�gerkorpset (JGK) commandos to A-Stan to kill the taliban bothering the Dutch base(s) there.

The dutch have also deployed 5~ 155mm SP Howitzers to help support the Canadians in A-Stan.

[thatguy96]

Has that been confirmed? The last I heard Canadian Ministry of Defense (or whatever the relevant orgnization is actually called) had claimed that those rumors were false, and that the Canadian Leopards were being readied for exercises within Canada.