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  #1  
Old January 31st, 2005, 04:31 PM
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Atrocities Atrocities is offline
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Default America the Police State

I am reading an article about the over criminalization of US Society. LINK (Foxnews.com)

Quote:
"When you start moving to that third-world model, where even law abiding people are afraid of police, it�s a big step backward for civilization, and even law enforcement in general," Kopel said
Quote:
The book chronicles several horror stories.

There�s 8-year-old Hamadi Alston (search) of New Jersey, who was put in a jail cell in 2003 for five hours for using an L-shaped piece of paper he found in a book as a play gun in the schoolyard. There have been numerous reports of people � even children � being arrested and detained with handcuffs for eating in Washington, D.C., subway stations.

Schoolteacher Hope Clarke was hauled off a cruise ship in 2003 allegedly for not paying a fine for leaving marshmallows at a Yellowstone National Park campsite. After being detained for 10 hours, she was taken into shackles before a judge, who by that time acknowledged she really did pay the fine.

Dave Kopel of the Independence Institute (search) in Denver said aggressive law enforcement has become increasingly a problem since the 1990s, when more agencies incorporated SWAT teams and governments wanted tougher zero-tolerance policies.
We know first hand around here about stupid laws. A car prowler cought by the car owner is let free, with a ticket, and the car owner is arrested and charged with assualt. Go figure.
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Old January 31st, 2005, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: America the Police State

Yep, it kinda makes you wonder.

First thing that comes to mind is:
Do you have to fail an IQ test to be a cop in the inner city?

Second thing is:
If a cop stops you and you are less than fully polite, is there is always some law that you are in violation of?

Third thing that comes to mind is:
Why does every state legislature have to pass a bunch of new laws every year? Wouldn�t it be more efficient to just enforce the ones already on the books? And how often do you hear about old laws being removed from the code?
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Old January 31st, 2005, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: America the Police State

No, but it helps.

Dunno. Do you have one of those federally approved and mandated trash bags in your car that they stopped making a few dacades ago?

Because they have to be seen as Doing Something to get re-elected. Yes, but when has government been about efficency? Besides, do you really want them enforcing what's actually on the books (see above)? Oh, about 1% as often as I hear about them passing a new law... if that.
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Old January 31st, 2005, 05:12 PM
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Default Re: America the Police State

You want an old law? Brazilian Comercial Code of Laws: Published in 1850 and still in use (with some modifications)... it�s funny to read it, it was created when Brazil was still a Monarchy and is full of strange lingustical expressions, and it even have a chapter (now invalidated) that regulates the comerce of slaves...
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Old January 31st, 2005, 05:23 PM
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Default Re: America the Police State

Quote:
Dunno. Do you have one of those federally approved and mandated trash bags in your car that they stopped making a few dacades ago?
You know that I once got a ticket for this. I told my Grandfather about it and he called his friend, Bill. Bill was a lawyer at the time, nearing retirement. We disputed the ticket and it was thrown out.

That was in 1988.

I now keep a trash bag in the car at all times. STUPID LAWS are on the books so STUPID COPS / PROSECUTING ATTORNEYS can make your life hell and steal your money and your freedoms.
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Old January 31st, 2005, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: America the Police State

Ah, but do you have the specific, mandated variety? If not, theoretically you can still get a ticket for not having it....
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Old January 31st, 2005, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: America the Police State

You know whats funny, the laws are seldom if ever inforced against those who wrote them. Take for instance the law that states that a senator or congressman are not to be paid for days the do not work. Senator Kerry tops the list for days missed with pay. He was paid over 600k that he was not entitled too. Yet do you think he, or all the others, will give the money back? Hell I was once hounded by the IRS for owning them $14.50 one year. The fines and fees brought that amount to nearly $120.00 a year later when they kept most of my return to pay it. Yet senators and congressmen can keep several hundred thousand dollars of our money without question even though there is a law against that?

It is extremly frustrating to know that the rich keep getting richer while the poor are made to pay more and more.

In France they knew how to deal with injustices like this. They simply did the unthinkable and beheaded everyone.
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Old January 31st, 2005, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: America the Police State

Careful! If the wrong person reads that, you could be labeled with the T word!
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Old February 9th, 2005, 07:12 PM

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Default Re: America the Police State

Well, getting back to the original topic of this thread:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.00418:

A Bill to establish mandatory national ID has been brought up for debate TODAY. As usual, it claims to be an 'anti-terrorism' measure and focuses on immigrants and resident aliens, but it covers all state driver's licenses including those of citizens. By forcing all states to standardize their driver's licenses and giving the data to the federal government this bill will create the centralized national ID system that has so-far been defeated when brought up explicitly. Since the Supreme Court has ruled that police have the right to demand ID any time they choose, this will put the entire population of the country under arbitrary surveillance.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm

Gun Owners of America
8001 Forbes Place Suite 102
Springfield VA 22151
Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408

Wednesday, February 9, 2005


The National ID card is back in the news, as Congress is getting set once again to debate the issue.

You will remember that late last year, Congress passed (and the President signed) legislation which starts us down the road to a National ID card. In the name of preventing alien terrorists from operating in this country, the so-called Intelligence Reform bill gave federal bureaucrats unprecedented new powers to force changes in state-issued driver's licenses -- including, possibly, the addition of computer chip technology that can facilitate the tracking of all U.S. citizens.

Now, the House will be debating new legislation, H.R. 418, that was recently introduced by Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI). In considering this bill, the U.S. House will vote on whether to empower the federal government to determine who can get a driver's license -- and under what conditions.

Since you need a driver's license to purchase a gun from a dealer, this will give BATF the expanded ability to impose even greater forms of gun control -- something which it has long coveted. This will become even more apparent if an anti-gun Democrat like Hillary Clinton wins the presidency in 2008.

H.R. 418 is, unfortunately, supported by many Republicans who believe that repealing our liberties will somehow make us "secure." But GOA joined a large coalition of citizen-activist organizations this week in opposition to H.R. 418. In a letter to Congress, the coalition stated:

"Standardization of driver's licenses has long been recognized as a bureaucratic back-door to implementation of a national ID card. With its required linking of databases and ability of the Secretary of Homeland Security to require a prescribed format, HR 418 takes us well along that road. Concerns are further heightened when the bill fails to even provide lip service to privacy concerns, and proposes to share all of our data on the driver's license database with Canada and Mexico."

Realizing government's tendency towards mission creep, no one should be surprised if this database grows to contain far more information than that which is relevant to driving. HR 418 requires that the database shall contain "at a minimum," all information contained on the driver's license as well as driving history. There is no limit to what other information may eventually be contained in the database -- something which should definitely concern gun owners.

H.R. 418 is being touted as a way of cleaning up some of the problems with the law that was enacted last December. But this bill is still an attack on states' rights. It still takes us down the road to a National ID card. And it would still do nothing to keep real terrorists from operating in our country.

ACTION: Please contact your Representative and urge him or her to oppose H.R. 418. You can use the Take Action Now feature to send a pre-written message.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: BORDC Action Alert: House to vote on REAL ID Act this week
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 15:09:57 -0500
From: Bill of Rights Defense Committee <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>

Dear Friends:

The House of Representatives is scheduled to take up Rep. Sensenbrenner's REAL ID Act (H.R. 418) next WEDNESDAY, with a vote likely THURSDAY, FEB. 10. Sending refugees who have fled torture, rape, and other brutal human rights abusers back to their tormenters and deporting long-term residents for charity contributions they made long ago will not make Americans safer from terrorism. Yet sections of H.R. 418 would do just that. To avoid debate over the bill's controversial provisions, the sponsor plans to attach his bill to a fast-approaching "must pass" bill, such as the the Iraqi supplemental spending bill or the relief bill for tsunami victims.

Summaries of a few troubling sections and a sample phone script follow. Here are links for more information:

* Bill text, list of cosponsors, and status:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquer...:@@@L&summ2=m&
* Contact information for your representative:
http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/
* Good analysis of the bill by the American Immigration Lawyers Association:
http://www.aila.org/contentViewer.aspx?bc=10,911,5516,8191
* Human Rights First web page where you can send your
representative an instant message:
http://action.humanrightsfirst.org/c...=ga_adv_realid

Summary: You may recognize parts of H.R. 418 as the most troubling sections of H.R. 10, which the conference committee for the Intelligence Reform bills rejected as too extreme, unrelated to intelligence or anti-terrorism, and in conflict with the 9/11 Commission's recommendations. Among the sections of most concern are:

* Section 101, which enables a judge to deny a refugee asylum if she is unable to track down specific documents that corroborate her claims--even if the U.S. State Department confirms that the country from which the refugee has fled never provides the documents--and bars other judges from reversing their determinations because the corroborating evidence is not available.
* Sections 103 and 104 would permit long-term legal U.S. residents to be deported for having given contributions years ago to organizations that later fit the Bush administration's profile of a terrorist organization, even if they are not on a list of named terrorist organizations.

Sample Phone Script: Please contact your Representative by phone and explain why you oppose some of the bill's provisions. For example,

"I urge you to oppose H.R. 418's provisions that will make it much harder for legitimate refugees to gain asylum and place them at greater risk of being deported back into the hands of their persecutors."

Bill of Rights Defense Committee
Web: www.bordc.org
Email: [email protected]
Phone: 413-582-0110
Fax: 413-582-0116

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Old February 9th, 2005, 10:40 PM

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Default Re: America the Police State

heh.

They missed the most 'interesting' part of HR 418, I think. This was brought up elsewhere in a different context..somehow I'm a little leery of letting an appointed cabinet official waive any laws he wants. The context is 'limited' but can quite easily be stretched to include a lot more than it would seem at first glance.

SEC. 102. WAIVER OF LAWS NECESSARY FOR IMPROVEMENT OF BARRIERS AT BORDERS.

Section 102(c) of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (8 U.S.C. 1103 note) is amended to read as follows:

`(c) Waiver-

`(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall have the authority to waive, and shall waive, all laws such Secretary, in such Secretary's sole discretion, determines necessary to ensure expeditious construction of the barriers and roads under this section.

`(2) NO JUDICIAL REVIEW- Notwithstanding any other provision of law (statutory or nonstatutory), no court shall have jurisdiction--

`(A) to hear any cause or claim arising from any action undertaken, or any decision made, by the Secretary of Homeland Security pursuant to paragraph (1); or

`(B) to order compensatory, declaratory, injunctive, equitable, or any other relief for damage alleged to arise from any such action or decision.'.
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