Caelum vs. T'ien Ch'i

[The Panther]

The post where people were asked to rate the nations had a clear winner and a clear loser. Caelum came out on top and TC came out on bottom. So why is this?

I recently tested TC for the first time to find out why Caelum is so much better than TC. And the answer is crystal clear. It's the mages!

Mages are far and away the most important thing for any nation. They do research. Build artifacts. Summon troops. Lead troops. Fight battles. Search for sites. In fact, absolutely everything needed in this game starts with the mages.

So, lets examine the Caelum and TC mages:

1. Cheap mages:
A. Seraph - A2W1 - 100 gold - recruitable everywhere.
B. MotW - W1?1P2 - 100 gold - recruitable everywhere.

The MotW gets a random, which is nice. The 2 priest is not very useful other than to halve the upkeep cost plus build an occasional temple, and I for sure would rather have a second random.

The Seraph has no random, which is not so good. But, and this is the key, it does not need one! Any Caelum player will get quickness/lightning right away. Then quickness/false horrors a bit later. Who needs a random? These Seraphs have the ideal skills for their cheap price. They can research and are extremely powerful in battles. They can also build some cheap artifacts when needed, like boots of flying and quill pens. And eventually, water bracelets for clam hoarding.

I would give a slight edge to Caelum on this, especially since it's mage has one more research level. But the one MotW random means you can get a W2 clam building mage easily as TC and do more level 1 site searching because of that random, plus they are half the upkeep cost. This is why I gave Caelum only a slight edge.

2. High mages:
A. High Seraph - A3W2?1 - 175 gold - recruitable everywhere!!!
B. Celestial Master - F1A1W2S1?1P3 - 250 gold - capitol only!

The cost difference is astounding. OK, the three priest level is mildly useful, which is where the extra purchase price goes. But the S1 is horrid! Any astral race will kill these mages fast. And you don't have all that many anyway due to the capitol only problem. Plus, the ONLY level 2 they come with is water, arguably the single worst school. It means you can immediately build clams. Big deal! You will quickly get a W2 MotW soon anyway and he will build the clams. Plus the only school you can get immediate access up to level 3 is water. Caelum can get air 4 out of the box! Ugh.

This is not even remotely balanced. The better mage is MUCH cheaper and built anywhere! In fact, I would go as far as claiming that the Caelum power mages are twice as cost effective as the TC power mages. The ONLY benefit to the CM is the lower upkeep cost.

This is, imho, why T'ien Ch'i deserves the bottom spot and Caelum gets the top spot. Not the only reason, but perhaps the predominate one.

So, how to fix this? And can it be done in a patch?

My first cut:
1. Increase the cost of the Seraph slightly, perhaps to 120.
2. Make the High Seraph capitol only and/or increase the cost to maybe 200 or 225.
3. Remove the S1 from the CM and make it a second random or perhaps a second fire.
4. Change the A1W2 to A2W1 on the CM.

Is this enough to make T'ien Ch'i a vaible race? Is this punishment enough for Caelum? Opinions, anyone???

[Kel]

I wouldn't want to see every nation evened out in every area. Nations should be made special on their own merits and have their own strengths, rahter than making every nation have similar attributes.

In short, it is ok that some nations have better mages, some have better economy, some better paths, some better in early game, some better in late game, etc.

If you think TC should be stronger, I would rather see it be something new than just smudging the lines a bit between them and Caelum.

- Kel

[alexti]

Caelum mages have another very important advantage: they can fly. Another advantage of Caelum is their cold scales.

MotW is pretty good though, don't discount halved maintenance. Plus, priest levels are more valuable then it looks. With Caelum you have to buy both mages and priests, with TC you need much less priests.

The weakness of TC is somewhat more complex that just costs. As you said S1 is one of the problems. Another one is that TC doesn't have good battle mages worth of mass production. CM are too expensive for what they do (flexibility is nice, but not at that cost). First few CM are really valuable (for searching, forging, summoning etc). But more CMs don't bring much. MotW are more cost-efficient, but most of them won't have good spells to cast.

I dislike idea of increasing Caelum costs, I'd rather took random from high seraphs, making them A3W3. They'd still have their flavour, and good cheap mages, but they'd also get very specialized, but without any randoms and only 2 paths covered it would call for specific strategies.

[The Panther]

alexti said:
I dislike idea of increasing Caelum costs, I'd rather took random from high seraphs, making them A3W3. They'd still have their flavour, and good cheap mages, but they'd also get very specialized, but without any randoms and only 2 paths covered it would call for specific strategies.

If you do this, then Caelum has no random picks, just like Ulm (which could be the subject of another post ) This might work, though, if you also change the Seraphs to A1W1?1.

The simple fact remains, both the Seraphs and the High Seraphs are simply too good for the cost, making Caelum the best race. And building High Seraphs everywhere is like piling on!

Of course, it is impossible to fully balance 17 different races. So we might as well continue to have Caelum picked in every game and TC picked rarely. Right?

Has anybody actually played an MP game with 10 or more players in which T'ien Ch'i won? Anybody?

Can you imangine the odds you would get in Las Vegas betting on T'ien Ch'i as compared to Caelum in a 10 player game with people of approximately equal skills?

[Zen]

The Panther said:
Has anybody actually played an MP game with 10 or more players in which T'ien Ch'i won? Anybody?

Yes. I have.

Can you imangine the odds you would get in Las Vegas betting on T'ien Ch'i as compared to Caelum in a 10 player game with people of approximately equal skills?

Probably not very good, I wouldn't start betting until I saw the starting positions. Your nation and Pretender set the stage on which the game is played, and while certainly some nations have the upper hand on this dynamic it doesn't mean that TC 'can't' win, but that it has to have strength in the areas to circumvent their weaknesses (Diplomacy, Timing, etc).

[Arryn]

Zen said:

Yes. I have.

Were you the TC player in that game? Another important consideration is whether the game was a blitz (VP) game or something more normal?

[Zen]

Arryn said:
Were you the TC player in that game?

Yes, but that hardly matters.

Another important consideration is whether the game was a blitz (VP) game or something more normal?

It was a normal slugathon. No house rules and Lasted into turn 70something. How it was won, was exactly what I stated, a combination of Timing and Diplomacy. As well as cold-hearted unmerciful morale killing blitz attacks that would render an opponent stunned while not flipping my hand too early. I purposfully left terrain undefended so that neighboring smallish nations would gobble up useless provinces or commit forces that could then be targeted by my quickstrike brigades.

MoTW are great for stopping Ghost Riders even chained in high numbers.

[Cainehill]

Another way to weaken Caelum slightly would be to change their random to be random elemental only. Sure, it means they get more A4s, but it also makes it tougher for them to get nature, death, and astral, all of which are quite valuable. (This would seem to make some sense, since Caelum's mages are definately elemental based - it makes more sense, imo, than Arco's mystics only having elemental randoms.)

The priest side of TC's mages is definately something of a bonus - if your pretender dies, you easily bring him back. Caelum may well have to build a bunch of seraphine priests all of a sudden, which are of dubious value unless menaced by undead.

Giving CM's an extra random (and increased cost) might help, imo.

Thing is, T'ien C'hi has better troops than Caelum, but yes, it's mages are lacking (except Spring and Autumn).

Frankly, if Water was improved the way it should be then TC's mages would be a lot more viable. That's how I'd like to seem them fixed, especially rather than nerfing Caelum.

[Boron]

If Tien Chi S&A wouldn't be forced turmoil 1 but could chase order/turmoil scale freely i think they would be a top 5 nation .

Marignon Diabolic faith is similiar but there i fear if they would be able to chose turmoil/order scale freely then they would be probably the best bloodnation , better than Mictlan and Abysia . Tien Chi S&A has still the weakness of mind duel + their CMs are capitol only so there i think simply removing the forced turmoil 1 would make them a nice nation .

Cainehill said:
Thing is, T'ien C'hi has better troops than Caelum, but yes, it's mages are lacking (except Spring and Autumn).

How do you come to this conclusion ? Caelum has good archers + mammoths . So their troops are superior to Tien Chi S&A and about on par with base Tien Chi .

[Chazar]

Boron said:
Caelum has good archers + mammoths . So their troops are superior to Tien Chi S&A and about on par with base Tien Chi .

The mammoth is nice during earlier stages of the game, but it is useless once the game has progressed and your armies start to count substantial numbers of mages among their ranks:

• First the mammoth disables strategical flight
• Second a trampling and routing mammoth will cause more losses among your mages than the enemy - and severely restricts the mages tactical placement. (and the high-moral but captial-only and hence limited and really-crappy-otherwise wingless do not change this for mid-game purposes)

So a mammoth isnt worth its high upkeep apart from initial expansion and early game blitzkriegs. The mammoth is just Caelums ticket to survive the early game stages.
(Maybe the mammoth could be made more useful if the seraphs would be allowed to target routing units - the Mammoths are used to friendly fire anyway... )

Well, and the Caelian Archers are nice, sure, but in later game stages their short bow becomes useless due to the constant storm produced by the obligatory staffs of storms (even despite of wind guide) and the increased protection of the enemies you are facing. Still they have their place in end game, since they are nice meatshields for the mages: They do allow strategical flight and they stay put in their tactical place thanks to the fire command. Give me the tactical 'hold only'-command and I will use any other size 3 flying troop. So they are just there to prevent the enemy to target my precious mages with "attack fliers" or "attack large" orders.