Poisoned Weapons and Etherealness ???

[Cohen]

In 3 of my games, it happened that Tritons killed my GK with ease, often if the 1st round of combat, swarming him.

Once however my GK had over 70 hit points due to high dominion ... but he was killed too in the 1st round of combat.

I'm thinking a poisoned weapon ignores Etherealness just as a magic weapon. It is right?
My GK wasn't poisoned since it's Poison Immune 100%.

Another question about poisoning ...
Does Manikin/Mandragora attacks are poisonous?
I managed to lose 2 Arch Devils sending them in battle against a CW Pangea army. They were both equipped with Snake Ring, but soon they got 100-200 fatigue and got slaughtered.
I believed that the Snake Ring would keep them safe from that ...

[Wuppin]

Another question about poisoning ...
Does Manikin/Mandragora attacks are poisonous?
I managed to lose 2 Arch Devils sending them in battle against a CW Pangea army. They were both equipped with Snake Ring, but soon they got 100-200 fatigue and got slaughtered.
I believed that the Snake Ring would keep them safe from that ...

The reason for this is that their attacks are not at all poisonous. PR will not help you [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]. This is becasuse Manikins and mandragoras have sleep vine attacks that cause LOTS of fatigue damage (33 fatigue damage per successful hit and 3 or 6 attacks depending on the unit). High armor can reduce this somewhat and MR can negate it, but in the case of mandragoras having 6(!) attacks per unit some of these are bound to penetrate. Then, once you are passed out, they are a shoe in to hit with their "claw" attack and kill that poor evil devil. Hope this helps.

[Molog]

Does protection really help against sleep vines?

High defense might also help as the vine critters have a low attack rating and sleep vines have -1 to attack already.

[Cainehill]

Does protection really help against sleep vines?

High defense might also help as the vine critters have a low attack rating and sleep vines have -1 to attack already.

But every attack after the 1st gets a bonus to attack. I'm not sure that this means the sleep vines go : -1, 0, +1, +2, +3, +4 for a single manikin / mandragora, or -1, -1, -1, 0, 0, 0. But even then the next one gets +1, +1, +1, +2, +2, +2.

[Graeme Dice]

But every attack after the 1st gets a bonus to attack. I'm not sure that this means the sleep vines go : -1, 0, +1, +2, +3, +4 for a single manikin / mandragora, or -1, -1, -1, 0, 0, 0. But even then the next one gets +1, +1, +1, +2, +2, +2.

It's not a bonus to attack, but a negative to defense.

[Taqwus]

The fatigue damage of Sleep Vines is armor-negating, I'm pretty sure.

They're brutal, en masse; if you're an SC with, say, four squares of two-vine mandragoras attacking you, that's 4 sq * 3 m/s * 2 vines * 3 att/vine = 72 vine attacks per turn... and the usual wraith sword won't be able to restore any fatigue by draining them. They still might not hit that often, since they're not exactly great warriors, but perhaps often enough...

Defense will help somewhat, but against that swarm of attacks you'd want a damage shield to kill the mandragoras and keep the number of attacks down; in particular, an astral shield should paralyze the mandragoras before they actually check to hit you, IIRC. The vines are also long, making it tough to repel them (either length 4 or 5, IIRC; if length 4, then a Dancing Trident, Machaka Spear or similar weapon should be able to. I don't know whether a Banshee's Wail (length 6 ) can repel.)

[archaeolept]

and MR can negate it

really? there's an MR check??

[Boron]

really? there's an MR check??

hm yeah in the weapon description there is a mr negates statement . i am not so sure if that is really checked though or gets at least a bonus .
i think it is a 11 + 2d6oe throw against the Mr + 2d6oe of the pretender . at least according to the manual .
so with 18 mr about 10% should hit .
given that when fully swarmed at least 200-300 attacks are made by the sleep vines lets say about 100 hit through swarming so 10% would be still 10 hits = 330 fatigue .

i think fighting pan cw carrion beast hordes with sc's only is suicide . even with 24 mr still about 2% of the hits succeed in the mrcheck . and fatigue reduces defense skill of a unit so when you get a lucky early hit already many more sleep vines will hit you from swarming .
and you get some damage through the normal attacks or trampling by the larger carrion beasts probably too .

carrion beasts are problably one of the really few types of creatures where it isn't good to attack with scs .
the other kind of troop were this is as severe are vampires imho . so attack both with holy pyre / wither bones and a meat wall

[Wuppin]

The fatigue damage of Sleep Vines is armor-negating, I'm pretty sure.

You might be right, but from the in-game description (at least for the mandragoras) the are not armor negating or AP. I think that there are other units with similar attacks such as tenticles on some units you get from crossbreeding but to the best of my knowlege it is not the case with manikins and mandragoras. Perhaps the in-game attack description is wrong? Can anyone answer this more definitively?

And, for the record, I agree that with a 25% chance to hit the non-magic-but-still-poisoned attacks of tritons are the cause for your dead ethereal unit.

[Boron]

You might be right, but from the in-game description (at least for the mandragoras) the are not armor negating or AP. I think that there are other units with similar attacks such as tenticles on some units you get from crossbreeding but to the best of my knowlege it is not the case with manikins and mandragoras. Perhaps the in-game attack description is wrong? Can anyone answer this more definitively?

And, for the record, I agree that with a 25% chance to hit the non-magic-but-still-poisoned attacks of tritons are the cause for your dead ethereal unit.

i would like to know too if the fatigue damage is an or ap or normal damage . the problem is in my current mp games which is the only way to find out this i have in none the chance to do this .

clearness the following test would give : use a 0 encumberance sc like a vq or pod . then try to bring it up to 35-40 protection and let a friend attack you this sc with lots of carrion beasts . then watch the battle :
if you get about 30-40 fatigue with each hit it is most likely an . if you get about 20 fatigue with each hit it is most likely ap .
if you get only rarely 1-5 fatigue then it is a normal attack .
unfortunately this is hard to test .