M4 Carbine Range question

Karagin · #1 April 22nd, 2021, 03:49 PM

Okay, I noticed that the game has the M4 Carbine with a range of 4 making it 200 meters for the game if the hexes are 50 meters, why?

The carbine has a range of 500 meters and we are trained to hit targets at 300 meters. Should it not be the effective range of the weapon for the game as well since the setup, based on my understanding, that the longer out the range the less damage and chance of hitting is still in play?

On the flip side, you guys give the M16A/M4 ACOG a range of 9. By the way, the M16A4 is only used by the USMC. Then the M4A1 Carbine, which is nothing but a full-auto version of the M4 the range of 7.

I am trying to understand the logic behind how the ranges for these weapons were decided upon since even the open-source material on the net and the TM for the rifles all agree that 500 meters are the range of Carbine.

cbreedon · #2 April 22nd, 2021, 04:53 PM

Not sure what the logic was with the designers but I edit the ranges to 9 on all the M4/M16 types in the OOBs I use.

DRG · #3 April 22nd, 2021, 07:34 PM

1/ The M4 carbine has had a range of 4 since 2002 and it's now 2021 ...nineteen years ...the VERY FIRST release....and in that time one ( 1 ) person ( you..) has questioned it and 2002 was before I took on the totally wonderful job of trying to keep these things straight so IDK what "the logic behind" that particular decision was exactly and since it's never been mentioned before I'd have to guess it's use was considered to be more for short range close combat situations rather than long-range shooting. That's my guess... the other is the guy who put it in f%*ked up and it took 19 years to be noticed

2/ Weapons with better than iron sights get to shoot further that's why AGOG etc are a bit more than standard along with increase accuracy makes them more effective

3/ The M4A1 Carbine is 7 but it started life in 2008 at 4 just like the M4 but in 2016 was upgraded to 7 and I would suggest since I do not have an Edenic memory ( but I do keep copies of the past release OOB's ) that some unnamed player mentioned the range was too short for the M4A1 at 4 and it was changed but the M4 was overlooked.

DRG · #4 April 26th, 2021, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG

1/ The M4 carbine has had a range of 4 since 2002 and it's now 2021 ...nineteen years ...the VERY FIRST release....and in that time one ( 1 ) person ( you..) has questioned it and 2002 was before I took on the totally wonderful job of trying to keep these things straight so IDK what "the logic behind" that particular decision was exactly and since it's never been mentioned before I'd have to guess it's use was considered to be more for short range close combat situations rather than long-range shooting. That's my guess... the other is the guy who put it in f%*ked up and it took 19 years to be noticed

2/ Weapons with better than iron sights get to shoot further that's why AGOG etc are a bit more than standard along with increase accuracy makes them more effective

3/ The M4A1 Carbine is 7 but it started life in 2008 at 4 just like the M4 but in 2016 was upgraded to 7 and I would suggest since I do not have an Edenic memory ( but I do keep copies of the past release OOB's ) that some unnamed player mentioned the range was too short for the M4A1 at 4 and it was changed but the M4 was overlooked.

================================================== ===============

UPDATE...but now it and all the others in the various OOB's are 6 and the M4A1 is 7 and for purposes of the game the "M4" is assumed to use Iron sights but the "A1" is assumed to use optics. The M4 should have been upgraded to 6 range when the M4A1 Carbine was upgraded to 7 range but to put this in perspective the weapon used in the game by most US units for the current time period is the M16A4/M4 ACOG RIFLE which has a range of 9 hexes. The M4 "Carbine" is what's used by Mortar crews, TOW teams, and forward observers and in some few cases, scout teams in the game but I think there is a semantics issue here.

The current M4 rifle is generally referred to as a "carbine" rather than "assault rifle" ( for reasons I think have more to do with political correctness ) but what most US troops use in the game is the "rifle" version with the longer range and optics.

The "M4 Carbine" was put into the first MBT OOB with a 4 range and I am assuming since I was not the guy who built the original OOB thought that this "carbine" version was a short-barreled firearm not unlike the Russian AKS-74U (like the M4 COMMANDO with an 11.5" barrel) which would explain the similar range and why it was only generally issued to support or HQ units in the game.

Suhiir · #5 April 26th, 2021, 07:17 PM

[quote=DRG;850180]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG

UPDATE...but now it and all the others in the various OOB's are 6 and the M4A1 is 7 and for purposes of the game the "M4" is assumed to use Iron sights but the "A1" is assumed to use optics. The M4 should have been upgraded to 6 range when the M4A1 Carbine was upgraded to 7 range but to put this in perspective the weapon used in the game by most US units for the current time period is the M16A4/M4 ACOG RIFLE which has a range of 9 hexes. The M4 "Carbine" is what's used by Mortar crews, TOW teams, and forward observers and in some few cases, scout teams in the game but I think there is a semantics issue here.

I'll work on separating the M16A4 ACOG and M4A1 ACOG in the USMC weapons tab and updating the units effected. Expect an updated USMC OOB sometime in the future.
M16A4 = 9
M4A1 = 7
M4 = 6

Suhiir · #6 April 22nd, 2021, 07:45 PM

The original M4, with just iron sights, while it can certainly shoot further has an "effective" engagement range of about 200m. While you can, if you have the luxury of lining up the perfect shot, hit at greater ranges chances are you won't.

Same applies to the original M16 with iron sights, about 400m is the best you can expect.

As game standards SMGs have a range of 100-150m, carbines 2-300m, smaller caliber assault rifles 400m, battle rifles 500m, sniper rifles 750m.

WinSPMBT is not a simulation, it's a game, thus many things are less, and sometimes more, effective then they are real life because in the game an assault rifle is an assault rifle is an assault rifle. It doesn't matter if it's an M16, AK47, FAMAS, SA80, G36, etc.

Karagin · #7 April 22nd, 2021, 09:01 PM

Easy enough to change via MobHack, and with Iron sights on the M4 I can hit a 300-meter target twice, we get 40 rounds to qualify with, and to get the expert qualification you need to hit 39-40 targets that pop up. So I know it has a range of hitting better than 200 meters that you are claiming for the game.

Same with the M16, but hey like you said it's a game, so I will adjust things to better reflect the game to my liking.

Also, your logic doesn't explain why the other weapons have the nefted ranges, the M16A4/M4 ACOG combo...the ACOG is an optic sight it doesn't increase the range of the weapons it's used on. But as you said it's a game.

DRG · #8 April 22nd, 2021, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karagin

Easy enough to change via MobHack, and with Iron sights on the M4 I can hit a 300-meter target twice, we get 40 rounds to qualify with, and to get the expert qualification you need to hit 39-40 targets that pop up. So I know it has a range of hitting better than 200 meters that you are claiming for the game.

Same with the M16, but hey like you said it's a game, so I will adjust things to better reflect the game to my liking.

Also, your logic doesn't explain why the other weapons have the nefted ranges, the M16A4/M4 ACOG combo...the ACOG is an optic sight it doesn't increase the range of the weapons it's used on. But as you said it's a game.

The " logic" with the optic sight is it gives it a greater effective range and that's why they have a slight increase in range and accuracy over a stock iron sight version. There is a better chance of hitting a target further away with one

By all means, edit the OOB however you like it's why we have included MOBHack since day one

Karagin · #9 April 22nd, 2021, 09:04 PM

Thanks for the input DRG and the rest. As I said I will adjust it via MobHack for my enjoyment.

Suhiir · #10 April 23rd, 2021, 01:37 AM

Personally I edit the heck out of many things

In general I increase the accuracy of MGs and reduce the damage, they're GREAT at suppression but don't hit anyone that often except in unusual situations, say firing an MG42 into a landing craft as the ramp is lowered.

For much the same reasons as you are I increase the range of the M16 from 8 to 9 (in the USMC you have to hit a target at least 50% of the time at 500m to qualify and hit it's bullseye at least 50% of the time to qualify as "expert. I do wonder with the new optical sights how many people now qualify as expert...).

I also increase the accuracy and reduce the damage for grenades.

And dramatically increase the accuracy of gattling guns.